low german cultures

[AirikrStrife]

recently did we see a new culture map on northern germany showing new low saxon and frisian culture. I was happy with the new culture, but not necessarily with it's implementations.

I did some digging now into the extent of middle low german, not the easiest topics, wikipedia still uses a study from 1914 as it's main source for dialects of middle low german:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Low_German#Dialects

A more recent study gives a similar but distinct idea of low german dialects in use in writing
Northern: from frisia to russia, including dialects of oldenburg, holstein, pommern, northern brandenburg and the baltics

Westphalian

Eastphalian

Brandenburgian: Includes east anhaltish

http://walkden.space/Breitbarth_Walkden_Watts_2011_CHLG.pdf

It gives westphalian, northern, eastphalian and Hansa language (based in lübeck)

[note that modern division of west and east does not exist yet]

What can be noted is how low german already before Luther was in decline in contact areas around southern modern Sachsen-Anhalt, and after reformation would be in even stronger decline.

Culture is not only dialect though, and I looked into some other stuff such as political trends.

I would love an eastphalian culture but since I think it's extremely unlikely to happen, I will not waste breath. The only new culture I'm gonna suggest is Brandenburgian

First though let's make some minutia about the culture borders of current cultures:

I think Lübeck should have Pomeranian, dialectwise Lübeck spoke an eastelbe dialect which extended east across mecklenburg and pomerania, Lübeck german would also be used particularly in pomeranian cities like Stralsund.

I would like to see Magdeburg, Halle and possibly Goslar with Low saxon culture. The dialect were still prominant in the cities and the area was within the lower saxon circle. Furthermore to me the (upper) saxon culture is strongly tied to the Electorate of Sachsen (a point I will make again later)

Oldenburg was part of the westphalian circle, it's dialect would be a bit of a misch with many different influences but giving the strong ties Oldenburg would have to Denmark and Holstein I think Low saxon makes sense here.



The main piece of this thread though is the culture of one of our favourite countries, Brandenburg. And that's already part of my main argument. While Brandenburg did speak various low german dialects, Berlin would already be switching to a middle german vernacular in the 16th century, the brandenburgian margraves probably never spoke proper low german (coming from schwaben originally). But giving Brandenburg it's own culture has strong benefits, it will guarantee that Brandenburgian as a tag won't vanish, that lost brandenburgian provinces seek to reunite with Brandenburg and not the von Wettins in Sachsen. The Brandenburg state would develop it's own culture and identity, not based on the dialect but because of the emergence of the great power it became. Alternatively, I could see Brandenburg actually starting with Prussian culture.

Provinces with Brandenburgian culture would be all territory ruled by Brandenburg + Neumark (except possibly uckermark, doesn't matter much). It could also be used in Anhalt, why, well dialect was close and seems just aswell as saxon, while being a particular nood to the duchy which would give us one of our foremost loading screen images, ofc Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst, better known as Catherine the Great.

Some thoughts on quit an underresearch topic.

edit: accidently did in the wrong forum (how move to suggestion forum?

 

[Calanon]

I'd like to see it added as a culture too, except I'd prefer it to be called Markish instead. But Brandenburgish works also.

I believe I read somewhere that Uckermark was settled by Pomeranians.

 

[TheDungen]

Shouldn't there be Holsteinian too? If they insist on having westphalian it should be westphalian Hannoverian and Holsteinian.

Though I still argue just to keep them as one block Low Saxon.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Shouldn't there be Holsteinian too

Holsteinian is part of north low saxon (2) Nordalbingian, between the lower Weser and the lower Elbe, and also Holstein on the right bank of the lower Elbe. main towns: Hamburg, Bremen, Lunenburg, Kiel.

Hannoverian

I see no reason why Hannoverian would be used in 1444 and most of the timeline, if a seperate culture it should be Eastphalian.

If they insist on having westphalian

Though I still argue just to keep them as one block Low Saxon.

Definitly possible, but it does make some sense to have more than one culture aswell. Especially between Westphalian and Lübeck lingua franca there were distinct differences in dialect and usage. However is Pomeranian is used for Lübeck, it could be argued using Low Saxon for everything else.

I believe I read somewhere that Uckermark was settled by Pomeranians.

Yes it was part of Pomerania until just before game start (technically Uckermark did include some territory that remained within pomerania. To me it's a bit arbitary where culture borders go, using dialect, history and politics, based on dialect rupin and neumark should also have pomeranian then.

I'd like to see it added as a culture too, except I'd prefer it to be called Markish instead. But Brandenburgish works also.

Yes, really just a question of flavor.

 

[Caligula Caesar]

Whilst there is an argument for adding "Markish" for Brandenburg, this would be a nerf for Brandenburg as they would have no own culture provinces to expand to. I'm not so sure that this would be a good thing.

 

[Calanon]

Whilst there is an argument for adding "Markish" for Brandenburg, this would be a nerf for Brandenburg as they would have no own culture provinces to expand to. I'm not so sure that this would be a good thing.

A nerf maybe, but it could alao help promote more historical expansion for Brandenburg. Considering

 

[Me_]

A nerf maybe, but it could alao help promote more historical expansion for Brandenburg. Considering

You mean no expansion, cause that's what it would promote?

 

[TheDungen]

Whilst there is an argument for adding "Markish" for Brandenburg, this would be a nerf for Brandenburg as they would have no own culture provinces to expand to. I'm not so sure that this would be a good thing.

Brandenburg could do with a need in the early game. They're a lot more powerful than they were. Of course you'd have to need bohemia first because they are already stomping on Brandenburg half the time.

 

[AirikrStrife]

While nullifying the purpose of having their own culture, giving them pomeranian would IMO be more suitable than saxon. It would facilitate tge historical wars between pomerania and brandenburg, there brandenburg would try to maintain suppremacy over pomerania,

Prussian as I said, would be another option which would serve to push brandenburg to expand into prussia

 

[gigau]

to the Suggestions subforum.

 

[TheDungen]

While nullifying the purpose of having their own culture, giving them pomeranian would IMO be more suitable than saxon. It would facilitate tge historical wars between pomerania and brandenburg, there brandenburg would try to maintain suppremacy over pomerania,

Prussian as I said, would be another option which would serve to push brandenburg to expand into prussia

Pommeranian should really be west slavic though and the germans of pommerania should either be Prussians (in hinterpommern) or some denomination of low saxons.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

Whilst there is an argument for adding "Markish" for Brandenburg, this would be a nerf for Brandenburg as they would have no own culture provinces to expand to. I'm not so sure that this would be a good thing.

I was under the assumption that the AI expanded based on culture groups and not their primary culture. If this is the case adding Markish wouldn't change much than. If I'm wrong and what I've been told is wrong I don't understand certain scenarios such as England taking Scotland, England owns all English provinces, or them even expanding outside their culture group and taking Ireland. I've seen Spain take over southern France, I've seen Switzerland taking over northern Italy and the list goes on. And if it's because the AI is programmed, in the case of England, couldn't Brandenburg be programmed or if you don't want to perhaps give them more ways to get their claims on Pomerania so they're more likely to attack. I don't mean to come off rude or anything, just confused by the argument against Markish.

 

[BalticM]

Brandenburg could start with Pomeranian as accepted culture since they own Uckermark. Would this help AI to expand towards coast more often instead of Saxony in case if primary culture is Markish?

 

[AirikrStrife]

Pommeranian should really be west slavic though and the germans of pommerania should either be Prussians (in hinterpommern) or some denomination of low saxons.

Well, the use of slavic names in pomeranian culture makes it unsuitable, but pomeranians should be a german culture. The area was heavily germanized and we can talk about a german pomeranian culture. The pomorian-slavic culture, ifadded should be called kashubians, the name was already in use.

I am quite neutral on adding kashubian, what could work is make stolp and tuchel polish culture, and have polish as an accepted culture in the pomeranian duchies.

I believe if not a seperate Markish culture is added, Brandenburg should already have prussian culture, as it's anyway the goal of brandenburg and the cultures would be quite similiar in terms of dialect, and neither brandenburg nor the ordenstaat did actually use low german but were using high german. Both areas were largely rural low populated with a few key cities.

 

[TheDungen]

Well, the use of slavic names in pomeranian culture makes it unsuitable, but pomeranians should be a german culture. The area was heavily germanized and we can talk about a german pomeranian culture. The pomorian-slavic culture, ifadded should be called kashubians, the name was already in use.

I am quite neutral on adding kashubian, what could work is make stolp and tuchel polish culture, and have polish as an accepted culture in the pomeranian duchies.

I believe if not a seperate Markish culture is added, Brandenburg should already have prussian culture, as it's anyway the goal of brandenburg and the cultures would be quite similiar in terms of dialect, and neither brandenburg nor the ordenstaat did actually use low german but were using high german. Both areas were largely rural low populated with a few key cities.

In that case all the pommeranian tags should be kashubians and and all provinces except some major cities should be kashubian too, because the dukal familes of all these were slavic. Take erik of Pommerania for an example was actually born Bogislav Gryf.
And no kashubian is not polish.

And the German pommaerinians aren't really all that diffrent from other low saxons to warrant a culture of their own.

 

[Me_]

In that case all the pommeranian tags should be kashubians and and all provinces except some major cities should be kashubian too, because the dukal familes of all these were slavic. Take erik of Pommerania for an example was actually born Bogislav Gryf.
And no kashubian is not polish.

And the German pommaerinians aren't really all that diffrent from other low saxons to warrant a culture of their own.

Names are not indicative. The last Piasts were purely German despite being named Piasts.

 

[Karst]

On a somewhat related note, I think it would be reasonable to split Austrian culture into Austrian and Tyrolean, to represent the difference between the Alpine and eastern plains Austrians, differences which are noticeable to this day.
Austrian is a pretty large culture by European standards and could do with a split. With Tirol (73), Trent (110), Lienz (1768) and Salzburg (76) it would be a decently-sized culture compared to many others in the region, while still leaving plenty of provinces to the Austrian culture.

 

[purplephoton]

this would be a nerf for Brandenburg as they would have no own culture provinces to expand to

Barely a nerf at all - tolerated culture land has penalties that you can pretty much ignore. -15% tax and manpower is bad, but since those two are both additive, plopping down a church and a barracks, put together with tax and manpower from other sources (ideas/estates) will effectively cut that penalty in half. It also doesn't have the +2 unrest that wrong culture group gives so no excessive rebelswarming, either.