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[LUX] That Map Expansion You All Probably Might Not Have Forgotten About

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Necal said:
This is incorrect. Historically, Islam had a fair bit of expansion through trade and willing conversion (The western Mongol Hordes and Mali were not conquered), and it is generally accepted that there were Muslims traders in India since (at the very latest) 700 AD, possibly as early as 629 AD.

While certainly not a conquering force, native conversion of a couple rulers for the purposes of trade would make sense.
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True, but the main Islamic push in India came from the conquest of Sindh. Without conquest of Persia there's no conquest of Sindh. IIRC, most trader communities converted because they already had strong bonds with pre-Islamic Arabia, and I'm not sure if they even were what we would consider a majority in CK2 province terms. In LI, not even the whole of Arabia was fully converted to Islam, so most definitely they never had the push to reach India. For all we know, the Arab traders in LI might come from the metropolitan Southern Arabia, which in LI are still held mostly by the Almaqah-worshipping Sabaeans.
 
Necal said:
This is incorrect. Historically, Islam had a fair bit of expansion through trade and willing conversion (The western Mongol Hordes and Mali were not conquered), and it is generally accepted that there were Muslims traders in India since (at the very latest) 700 AD, possibly as early as 629 AD.

While certainly not a conquering force, native conversion of a couple rulers for the purposes of trade would make sense.
Click to expand...
Not in Lux :rolleyes:
Converting for trade, Indians would probably rather go Chinese animist or Zoroastrian, not Muslim, at least in Lux Invicta :p
 
Necal said:
This is incorrect. Historically, Islam had a fair bit of expansion through trade and willing conversion (The western Mongol Hordes and Mali were not conquered), and it is generally accepted that there were Muslims traders in India since (at the very latest) 700 AD, possibly as early as 629 AD.

While certainly not a conquering force, native conversion of a couple rulers for the purposes of trade would make sense.
Click to expand...

First of all, my statement was that to invade India, they would need to conquer Persia. This statement is not incorrect, since that's how it happened.

As for why Islam could have appeared in India at this time, it is true that (basically since its founding) Islam has had connections with India for quite a long time, even before the invasion by bin Qasim. However, these were largely limited to converted communities (such as the Mappilas) and Arab traders. From the 10th - 12th centuries, most of not all the ground gained by Islam was located around Sindh and Punjab. After that, you see the formation of the Sultanate of Delhi. Given the time period, the intentional fragmentation of Islam, the lack of conquest of the Sassanids, and the significant and long-standing role of Buddhism and Hinduism in that same region means Islam will not be showing in India.

Unless, of course, you as a player invade India and convert it to Islam.
 
That strikes me as an odd choice- I don't see why a hand-waved excuse can't be made to have an indian nation start muslim- it denies an interesting field of possible syncretic and mystic forms of islam to occur as a unique indian form of the faith. Certainly you could see any of the fractious muslim branches try to start a new ulema in a country it has massive historical roots in as much as you could see any of the weird religious things you do.
 
With the muslims in india thing, I have to say that while I agree that on Lux's timeline muslims would never have invaded India (and probably wouldn't have done much trading either)--I think it's worth pointing out that in Lux, there's a norse kingdom in Azerbaijan. :p I don't think one lonely muslim duchy in India would be all that out of place.

But much more importantly, thank you so much for making the map. Now I can really make the Serindian Empire. :D
 
futuregary said:
First of all, my statement was that to invade India, they would need to conquer Persia. This statement is not incorrect, since that's how it happened.

As for why Islam could have appeared in India at this time, it is true that (basically since its founding) Islam has had connections with India for quite a long time, even before the invasion by bin Qasim. However, these were largely limited to converted communities (such as the Mappilas) and Arab traders. From the 10th - 12th centuries, most of not all the ground gained by Islam was located around Sindh and Punjab. After that, you see the formation of the Sultanate of Delhi. Given the time period, the intentional fragmentation of Islam, the lack of conquest of the Sassanids, and the significant and long-standing role of Buddhism and Hinduism in that same region means Islam will not be showing in India.

Unless, of course, you as a player invade India and convert it to Islam.
Click to expand...

I agree with him. Islamic syncretism with Hinduism or Buiddhism (Budhislam from Dune, I guess) could be put there and appear by event when the Muslim player conquers parts of India, but Muslim India in this context makes little sense.

This mod is a fantasy wish-fullfillment box, but it needs a bit of plausible solidity here and there.
 
Cèsar de Quart said:
I agree with him. Islamic syncretism with Hinduism or Buiddhism (Budhislam from Dune, I guess) could be put there and appear by event when the Muslim player conquers parts of India, but Muslim India in this context makes little sense.

This mod is a fantasy wish-fullfillment box, but it needs a bit of plausible solidity here and there.
Click to expand...

Since there wasn't a lot of wiggle room to do anything with Islam in this expansion, and since Islam is really limited in comparison to vanilla here, I think it'd be cool if we compensated the lack of influence Islam has at the start up with a lot of flavor and mechanic events as time progresses. Unfortunately, Islam's monotheistic and orthodox emphasis makes hybridization with other religions difficult. Not impossible, as shown with plato_islam and sol_islam, but I think any actual Muslim would consider both of those doctrines to be heresy. And both of their counterparts - Neoplatonism and Solar-Imperialism - both have strong monotheistic aspects. Hybridization with a polytheistic (arguably the most polytheistic religion alive) faith like Hinduism, or an atheistic faith like Buddhism, seems on the border of stretching it a little far. However, much like the Bahá'í faith, if another religion which was neither were to syncretize elements of both, it could be feasible. Definitely an idea to keep in mind as we make plans with what to do with Islam.

Numahr might also have plans with them, but that I don't know for certain.
 
Syncretism between Islam and Hindusim took place IRL in at least three instances:

- you really have a lot of occurrences of syncretic popular beliefs, where shrines and even gurus/sufis are worshipped equally by Hindus and Muslims in a relatively organic/harmonious fashion, in areas with mixed populations. See this article for example. In LI terms, this would be a religion of Indian civilization / Local variation / Traditional soul / Muslim ascendant. It could emerge in game if Muslims rule over Hindu provinces...

- then one may want to try again, and succeed, in creating and imposing the Din-e Ilahi, a model of Statist syncretic faith representing exactly an attempt to merge Islam and Hindusim. In game terms it would be Muslim civilization / Local variation / Statist / Indian ascendant.

- Finally Sikhs comes as another example as far as they can be considered as a more elaborate version of the popular syncretism.

(BTW Bahaism being a syncretism of 19th century French enlightenment and Persian mysticism would be a bit anachronic in LI but it would otherwise be Persian / Heretical / Populist / Muslim ascendant, I guess)

All this being said, in LI the emphasis should be on Zoroastrian Hindu, which Shaytana wanted to give a larger role but could not due to the map limitation, as the logical replacer of these syncretisms. Remember that Islam was imported to India more by Persians or Persianized Turks than by Arabs, as illustrated by the Northern Indian languages being so influenced by Persian (Din-e Ilahi mentioned above uses Arabic words but a Persian construction). In LI, Persians are still, to large extent, Zoroastrians of various creeds... Plus even IRL they did import Zoroastrianism to India, although as refugees rather than conquerors... with Zoroastrianism still being a significant element of the Indian religious scene even today, especially in Gujarat and Delhi. Now of course I am aware of the LI Hellenic Hindu syncretism which I don't comment further as it is already obvious. It is already well represented with multiple variants so no need for an advocate here. That's why I want to advocate, in particular, for a rich Zoroastrian / Hindu syncretism...

By the way an interesting real-life example of this is the still open to Zoroastrian worship Fire temple in Baku, Azerbaijan (not to mention those in India), maintained by rich Gujarati Zoroastrians since the 19th century, a bizarre occurrence...
 
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Sometime in July is what futuregary guestimated.
 
Damn, I thought that the bit at the top left of the map was Vinland, but it's Greenland... pity. Could you rotate Iceland slightly so that the transition to Greenland is not so sudden? Or at least make Iceland "rounder", it's too distorted I think.

I'll have the new flags ready before the 2nd of July, by the way.
 
It is - quite a few places in the map are rather improportionate, especially up in that corner (GB and the other islands). Sadly, the tweaks I would need to make to the map files would add more time onto the release date, and there's also the fact that I'm not totally confident I could pull it off and make it look good. Unless someone experienced in map modding who thinks they could do it really quick wants to give it a swing. :eek:o

Technically, I would have liked to have it done before today, but alas, Steam Summer Sales prevail. They always do that...

As for an update: three people have offered their help (interestingly enough, all with the flags :p), the bulk of the SELIN modifiers have been added, and positions are done. If anyone wants to help with localizing titles or correcting bad references, please send a PM! :D I will credit everyone who helps when the expansion is released.
 
Is there any plans to add more titular empires in India? I'm hoping for the appearance of the Saka-Kushan or Kush-Yuezi Empire, as well as what Shaytana referred to as 'Megas Basileus of India' and 'Megas Basileus of the South' in his TL. There is also several mentions of the formation of an Armenian Empire and the Empire of the Bulgars/Bulgaria in his TL, which should both also be titular empires :happy:
 
Martellus. said:
Is there any plans to add more titular empires in India? I'm hoping for the appearance of the Saka-Kushan or Kush-Yuezi Empire, as well as what Shaytana referred to as 'Megas Basileus of India' and 'Megas Basileus of the South' in his TL. There is also several mentions of the formation of an Armenian Empire and the Empire of the Bulgars/Bulgaria in his TL, which should both also be titular empires :happy:
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An Armenian Empire like Tigranes' realm, I suppose?

I like more Empires if they're cultural instead of merely geographical.
 
DarkReborn said:
True, but the main Islamic push in India came from the conquest of Sindh. Without conquest of Persia there's no conquest of Sindh. IIRC, most trader communities converted because they already had strong bonds with pre-Islamic Arabia, and I'm not sure if they even were what we would consider a majority in CK2 province terms. In LI, not even the whole of Arabia was fully converted to Islam, so most definitely they never had the push to reach India. For all we know, the Arab traders in LI might come from the metropolitan Southern Arabia, which in LI are still held mostly by the Almaqah-worshipping Sabaeans.
Click to expand...

The role of Sufism should be investigated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism_in_India
 
Shouldn't we work with the autonym system implemented into the game? things like Muslim names changing into Romance, Germanic or Latin ones, etc?

I can see this being big in India, Persia and Rhomania. Especially now that I plan to extend an Indo-Hellenic kingdom far into the Balkans and Egypt.
 
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