(Map) Mod: Bohemia v Richtigu

[Splorghley]

Interesting mod. Problem with number of moravian counties can be easilly solved by abolishing duchy of Moravia and creating one province duchies for Olomouc, Brno and Znojmo as it in fact was before creation od Margaraviate of Moravia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_of_Moravia

The duchy of Moravia doesn't exist at game's start. All the provinces are directly subordinated to the Duchy of Bohemia. You can form the Duchy of Moravia if you wish later on. What we're talking about is the de facto duchy - i.e. what provinces the game will consider to be part of Moravia if you form it.

 

[unknownunknown]

I know, but what bothers me is that fact that you can't form those duchies and can only form one duchy consisting of whole Moravia. It's just small thing in fact

 

[Arizael]

I know, but what bothers me is that fact that you can't form those duchies and can only form one duchy consisting of whole Moravia. It's just small thing in fact

Those duchies were de facto counties. Seriously it would weird to play Konrád of Brno and on the same level as the duke of Bavaria.

I've did some research on Moravia and now i understand why did Paradox put the provinces of Hradec and Boleslav there.

The "borderland" was heavily forested at 11th century and only sparsely populated. Traveling from Prague to Brno was probably even more horrible, than using modern D1 highway. Premyslid rulers simply used their moravian holdings to get rid of annoying family members. They all were ruling their turfs happily divided by huge forest and only met few times a year.

Later however the "borderland" got settled and became the center of bohemian economy due to abudant sources of silver. The devs probably wanted to reflect that somehow, but didn't know which name to use. Hence Hradec with 1 extra slot.

So I would unite Olomouc and Opava again (keeping the nice border change with Silesia). It realy doesn't make sense to have province there controled directly by the king. The solution would be to add province Jihlava (founded in 1233 but nobody is perfect) between Chynov Brno and Hradec and put de iure under Moravia, but Bohemian control.

This is modern map, but you can nicely see whats Moravia and whats not. Best historical map i've found in czech and german are unfortunately pretty lousy quality.

Btw nice job with the rivers. Wish you patience with the map editing

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

So I would unite Olomouc and Opava again (keeping the nice border change with Silesia).

I think Opava should be as well, because it was disputed area between Poland and Bohemia; it should be even as part of de jure Silesia, as it's still classified as part of it. Opava was taken by Bretislav in 1030's and Casimir the Restorer had to deal with it. Also there was few conflicts about it during reign of Boleslaw III.

I prefer Znojmo than Weitra, so I wouldn't mind if you would rename it, and maybe increase little at the expense of Austria and Brno.

 

[Ruwaard]

thx!

I still think Weitra is not important enough to be added. Austria becoming a duchy had nothing to do with it gaining or losing territory. Also, it was raised to a duchy in 1158, according to the map those regions became part of it around 1185.
However, the province "Österreich" is too big now. It should posses not as much territory to the south, so the province "steiermark" is a bit too far south. Also, to recreate the puffer region between Bohemia you could divide österreich into two provinces, one south of the danube and one north of it. It was done this way in the mappa regnorum mod of CK1. Check this one!

Also, Bohemia laying claim to Austria should not be made easier for the AI, it's enough to have it in the history files. The Babenbergers becoming extinct in the male line has nothing to do with Weitra. The claims were not because of disputed territory.

It would be great if you could expand this mod further to the HRE and Austria..

I Agree, but in Mappa Regnorum the duchy of Austria eventually had 3 provinces, Traungau (Upper Austria, would also affect Passau and Salzburg) and eventually Pitten (south of the Danube) was split off from Österreich (both are in Lower Austria). IMHO Austria should at least have Österreich and Traungau; Pitten would be nice, but IMO not as necessary as the other two. Not to mention the situation in Carinthia and Styria.

BTW I saw that you changed the rivers a bit, but shouldn't the Vltava/Moldau river be entirely within Bohemia?

 

[unmerged(319241)]

IMHO Austria should at least have Österreich and Traungau; Pitten would be nice, but IMO not as necessary as the other two.

+
definitely true. but IMHO Traungau shouldn't be a vassal of the duchy of Austria before ~1180.


Again, about Weitra:
The fact that an area was disputed doesn't make it automatically an important area. Weitra is part of the region "Waldviertel" (=forest quarter), which is believed to have been called like that because there was less farmland in it compared to the other quarters, therefore:

*) more forest -> less agriculture -> low population density -> less wealth
*) small province
*) all major towns there seem to be first mentioned in the late 12th century, after it came to Austria

IMHO those are the most obvious things speaking against Weitra

so my suggestion is to delete the province. I'm sure one could find numerous regions like that all over europe. Isn't it more desireable to add a province that had an important barony/city in it, instead of adding one just because it once changed it's owner?

 

[Ruwaard]

+
definitely true. but IMHO Traungau shouldn't be a vassal of the duchy of Austria before ~1180.


Again, about Weitra:
The fact that an area was disputed doesn't make it automatically an important area. Weitra is part of the region "Waldviertel" (=forest quarter), which is believed to have been called like that because there was less farmland in it compared to the other quarters, therefore:

*) more forest -> less agriculture -> low population density -> less wealth
*) small province
*) all major towns there seem to be first mentioned in the late 12th century, after it came to Austria

IMHO those are the most obvious things speaking against Weitra

so my suggestion is to delete the province. I'm sure one could find numerous regions like that all over europe. Isn't it more desireable to add a province that had an important barony/city in it, instead of adding one just because it once changed it's owner?

I agree, about the de facto situation before 1180, but IMHO Traungau should already belong to de jure duchy of Austria.

We might end up with quite some provinces, but IMHO Europe doesn't need more provinces than it currently has in the Mappa Regnorum mod for Ck 1.

 

[Talvos]

trying to figure out what all the co-ordinates do in positions.txt.

The co-ordinates as I have found are as follows:

city location
army location
court location
sfx (plauge etc.) location
navy location

Bare in mind that the map has to be vertically flipped before co-ordinates are read.

 

[Splorghley]

snip

I don't want to go ahistorical with the (external) Moravian borders - at the moment they look exactly like they should. I could remove Opava and split Brno into two halves (whilst moving Olomouc's southern frontier a tad northwards). The western half of what is now Brno would be in Bohemian hands but de jure Moravian, and the eastern half would be, well, Brno.

snip

The name 'Opava' is a bit of a misnomer, as the province is not Czech Silesia but northern Moravia. The borders were different than they are now, and I am quite certain that Opava was within Moravia at this point. I would be open to renames if people found it too misleading.

I can't use 'Znojmo' since it's not actually anywhere near Znojmo, alas. It's probably going to be bumped up in size and renamed to Zwettl.

snip

I'm not trying to recreate Mappa Regnorum, I'm just modding Bohemia/surrounds as I find it to be realistic. I really don't want to add any provinces for the time being. Vltava is entirely within Bohemia - a screenshot of the rivers as changed is towards the end of the first page. The first post's screenshot shows vanilla rivers.

snip

Indeed, but that's Austrian history. The Slavs who inhabited the region before Austrians didn't leave behind any written materials, so we don't know what kinds of settlements they may have had there. I am thinking of increasing its size some, and calling it Zwettl, which contained an important monastery around this time.

snip

Thanks! That's very helpful. I already figured the vertical flip out, but I wasn't totally sure what each co-ordinate referred to, so I just listed the same one five times when moving stuff around (which is causing some weirdness - Austria, Weitra, and Sopron are sort of ignoring my instructions for the time being). Thanks again.

 

[unmerged(319241)]

I agree, about the de facto situation before 1180, but IMHO Traungau should already belong to de jure duchy of Austria.

Yes, part of the de-jure Duchy.

The Slavs who inhabited the region before Austrians didn't leave behind any written materials, so we don't know what kinds of settlements they may have had there. I am thinking of increasing its size some, and calling it Zwettl, which contained an important monastery around this time.

The fact that the region was populated by slavs is IMHO another argument against including it as an disputed region between Bohemia and Austria. Increasing it to Zwettl is tricky, because Zwettl is only a few kilometers away from an old seat of the Babenberger margraves in Gars am Kamp (1075-), also it was founded by the Kühnringers in 1139, although it's name is of course of slavic origin.

my suggestion is to incorporate Weitra as it is now either into the provinces Chynov, Brno or Österreich.

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

The name 'Opava' is a bit of a misnomer, as the province is not Czech Silesia but northern Moravia. The borders were different than they are now, and I am quite certain that Opava was within Moravia at this point. I would be open to renames if people found it too misleading.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śląsk_Opawski and http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grodziec_nad_Morawicą - if you can read polish, because there are no such information in other languages (even czech).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Silesia - as you can see Opava and Hradec nad Moravice are part of Silesia.

That's what I can find here. But still I can asure you that owning Opava and Hradec by Bohemian was really young in 1066, as so even Poland should (being historically correct) have claims on it (bad idea in CK2, if AI would have it).

 

[Splorghley]

Well, version 1.0 for 1.02b should be out! Check the first post. I'm a bit sleepy, it's 6am, so hopefully I've packed everything in.

Also, since I am not sure about Mediafire, it'd be great if someone could mirror the file.

Off to bed, g'night!

 

[mitrydates]

I found another map showing all the holdings of Czech Crown: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Země_Koruny_české.jpg

You've got there quite detailed division of Silesian duchies. I'll try to redraw it a bit to make it easier to put into the game.

 

[Splorghley]

Should I continue updating this? Are people playing with it?

 

[Aurelius4444]

Oh yes please, I couldn't play with Bohemia without your mod. Good work.

 

[Isaios]

Should I continue updating this? Are people playing with it?

I'm still playing it, so please do