Map modification(South-Central Europe)

[chegitz guevara]

No, but the Macedonians (FYROM) nationalists will.

This is why I tend to ignore people from that part of the world when doing game design for the region. The rest of us have no axes to grind, and don't have all these passions, as well as years of nationalist schooling to tell us what the "truth" is. We can be a little bit more objective. It's why I avoid doing anything with the U.S.

 

[chegitz guevara]

"Historically, Rumelia denoted the Balkan possessions (particularly Thrace and Macedonia, and excluding Bosnia) of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman province of Rumelia comprised much of present-day Serbia and Montenegro, Macedonia, Bulgaria, European Turkey, N Greece, and part of Albania. Sofia was the seat of the governors of Rumelia until 1878" - Columbia Encyclopedia

Wait, are you argeeing with me!?! :wacko:

The name should be Sanjak.

What the Serbs call it today is something they picked up from the Turks. A Sanjak is a political division of the Ottoman empire. What's Serbo-Croatian for March (Mark)?

 

[Hive]

This is why I tend to ignore people from that part of the world when doing game design for the region. The rest of us have no axes to grind, and don't have all these passions, as well as years of nationalist schooling to tell us what the "truth" is. We can be a little bit more objective. It's why I avoid doing anything with the U.S.

I must agree.

As to this Kosovo/Nish discussion, I might as well close it by saying that it will stay as Kosovo.

Pelagonio/Ochrid, however, I'm in doubt of... I tried searching Wikpedia for the former, but with no result - even with the alternative spelling. So atm, I'm leaning towards Ochrid (or Ohrid, dunno what's best) unless someone convince me otherwise...

EDIT: I had some thoughts abot the current map; Should Croatia really border Hungary? Does Herzegovina really need a port (the small land strip it actually has is in the middle of Croatian waters)?

Also, I have decided that Croatia won't get a port - Istria will have islands covering the Croatian coastline.

 

[Abdul Goatherd]

Pelagonio/Ochrid, however, I'm in doubt of... I tried searching Wikpedia for the former, but with no result - even with the alternative spelling. So atm, I'm leaning towards Ochrid (or Ohrid, dunno what's best) unless someone convince me otherwise...

That the area was called "Pelagonia" in Macedonian antiquity is reasonably certain. That modern Macedonians like connecting themselves to Macedonian antiquity is also reasonably certain.

It seems the question is whether it offends the sensibilities of EU2 players (majority non-Macedonian I expect) to have an area that is predominantly Slavic possess a Hellenic-sounding name. That seems to be driving force of the objection.

So it's really a judgment call.

I come down in favor of Pelagonia, simply because :

(a) Macedonians call it that & seem to like it a lot. They should know. The fact that it is Hellenic-sounding shouldn't count against it if the people of the region like Hellenic-sounding names (e.g. they named their country "Macedonia" after all. )
(b) Since we give Greece a province with a name connected to Macedonian antiquity, so it's only "politically fair" to give Macedonia one too. This, I think, is of paramount importance if you want to avoid provoking nationalist sensibilities. You definitely do not need a coterie of FYROMers demanding the name "Macedonia, and that you change the Greek province to "East Macedonia" (and, of course, the converse group of Greeks demanding you change it back). Pelagonia is a good compromise. It is sufficiently evocative of Macedonian antiquity to satisfy the FYROMers & the Greeks can't deny it was there.
(c) that's also what the area was known as in Latin Europe (e.g. the chronicles of the Crusaders passing through the area called it that).
(d) It's the name of a region, not a city or a mountain or a river.
(e) The region shows up in maps under that name, e.g. here's one from antiquity, here's a a medieval one, here's another medieval one (yes I know its in cyrillic, but trust me, it does read "Pelagonia" ]

So that's the extent of the Pelagonian case.

 

[Underhand]

I wish there was a better choice than 'Hellas' though, it's a misnomer on the scale of 'Anglia'.

Actually it's not. In the context of the map, Hellas does not mean the whole of Greece (which I'm assuming is what you're thinking of), but the Byzantine theme of Hellas, which covered Thessaly, Athens and Euboea as they appear on MKJ's map. Clearly it's better that Euboea is a province in its own right, but otherwise the theme of Hellas fits remarkably well with the province on Hive's map.

Currently most of the Greek provinces on Hive's map are named after the Byzantine themes, with the exceptions being Morea (Pelopponnesus is far too long) and Epirus (Nikopolis is longer and a city in the region of Epirus, and the theme is a different shape to the province). To me this is visually pleasing, accurate and appropriate, since using Byzantine themes makes sense when the Byzantine Empire ruled all of these provinces at the start of the HYW scenario and survived for more than a hundred years of game time.

 

[Underhand]

I can't offer much to the Pelagonia/Ochrid debate other than to say that they both seem like reasonable names for the province.

I lean towards Pelagonia for the reasons Abdul Goatherd gave, and because the region was called Pelagonia for the entirety of the period (and more), while the Ochrid Archbishopric was abolished in 1767, so that's 146 years of game time when the latter is just a city (and a lake, but the region is not named for a lake it contains).

 

[chegitz guevara]

According to that map, the region Finallach wants to call Rumelia should be Slavonia.

 

[chegitz guevara]

Hive, what about using shorter names for your provs? Edirne for Macedonia, Hum for Herzgovinia, etc? Just a though.

 

[Hive]

Hive, what about using shorter names for your provs? Edirne for Macedonia, Hum for Herzgovinia, etc? Just a though.

I won't use Edirne, as that's a purely Turkish name. The province was still Greek back then...

Hum? I don't know that name. Tell my why it's appropriate, and I might.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

... but the Byzantine theme of Hellas, which covered Thessaly, Athens and Euboea as they appear on MKJ's map.

That's fine by me then

I was in the middle of responding to Finellach when I noticed Nis was summarily dismissed... cosmic.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

What the Serbs call it today is something they picked up from the Turks. A Sanjak is a political division of the Ottoman empire.

I know what it is and what are it's origins. I am saying how this area is called today. Historically this strip of land was actually part of Rashka - early medieval Serbian state-province.

What's Serbo-Croatian for March (Mark)?

I am guessing that the best equivalent would be, for all South-Slavic languages, 'krajina'.

EDIT: I had some thoughts abot the current map; Should Croatia really border Hungary? Does Herzegovina really need a port (the small land strip it actually has is in the middle of Croatian waters)?

It really depends what kind of setup you really want. The current map is more modern and it shows setup from 16-17th to 19th century and up to the 20th century.

If you want a more medieval setup you should modify the whole map...I suggest looking at MKJ's map of the area. Personally I think that it's better to have a more modern setup as it is now because it's better for such a long period as EU2 has.

Also, I have decided that Croatia won't get a port - Istria will have islands covering the Croatian coastline.

I already said before that Croatia shouldn't have a port and that we should transfer both islands to Istria...historically they belong to Istria anyway.

According to that map, the region Finallach wants to call Rumelia should be Slavonia.

Excuse me?!?!
Slavonia is province of Croatia covering the lower Panonian basin above the river Save and in between River Save, Drau and Danbue.
Rumelia is a Turkish name for Ottoman possesion in Europe excluding Bosnia.

???

Edit: Oh and Hive Herzegovina should not have a port. Personally I think the best thing would be just to remove the small strip by Herzegovina and adding to Dalmatia.

 

[chegitz guevara]

I won't use Edirne, as that's a purely Turkish name. The province was still Greek back then...

By 1419, the provence that you have labeled Macedonia was majority Turkish. Adrianopolis was the capital of the Ottoman Empire and called Edirne.

Hum? I don't know that name. Tell my why it's appropriate, and I might.

That area was called Hum up to the begining of the 15th Century. Herzegovinia was the name of the state that split off from Bosnia when the latter fell to the Turks for the last time.

 

[Hive]

By 1419, the provence that you have labeled Macedonia was majority Turkish. Adrianopolis was the capital of the Ottoman Empire and called Edirne.

Are you sure it was majorily Turkish already in 1419? I'm not convinced...

That area was called Hum up to the begining of the 15th Century. Herzegovinia was the name of the state that split off from Bosnia when the latter fell to the Turks for the last time.

Well if it was only up untill the beginning of the 15th century, I see little reason for being so enthusiastic about exactly this name. Though it's nicely short, I'll give you that...

 

[chegitz guevara]

Excuse me?!?!
Slavonia is province of Croatia covering the lower Panonian basin above the river Save and in between River Save, Drau and Danbue.
Rumelia is a Turkish name for Ottoman possesion in Europe excluding Bosnia.

Do try reading other people's posts from time to time, will you? Abdul the Goatherd wrote an extensive post, including this link to a map of 1204 clearly labeling that area as Slavonia.

You're using Rumelia in its loose term. As a province, "it was the country bounded north by Bulgaria, west by Albania and south by the Morea, or in other words the ancient provinces, including Constantinople and Thessaloniki, of Thrace and Macedonia. The name was ultimately applied more especially to a province composed of central Albania and western Macedonia, having Monastir for its chief town." A territory North of Bosnia definately does not apply.

 

[chegitz guevara]

Are you sure it was majorily Turkish already in 1419? I'm not convinced...

According to the research I did for this thread, it was a majority Turkish

Well if it was only up untill the beginning of the 15th century, I see little reason for being so enthusiastic about exactly this name. Though it's nicely short, I'll give you that...

It's mostly the nicely short part that I like. Herzgovinia is more correct, but it will be covered up by city and other icons.

 

[unmerged(36846)]

Hi guys i dint read all the posts so maybe some of my proposals were already stated. I think that the map by finellach of the balkans is good.
However i think some changes needed to be done to greece which is a potentially rich region..
Hellas could be divided into two provinces, maybe Livadia with capital as lepanto and athens.
Macedonia could be divided also. The northern part named macedonia with capital as skopje and slavonic culture..the southern named thessaly with capital at salonika..greece culture.
More islands could be added..west of morea - cephalonia and zante (both to venice) and in the aegean cerigo (venice), chios (genoa), and lesbos (oe).

In the balkans, we could place some province betwwen istria and dalmatia as they are quite far away. Istria should be alot smaller and occupying only the peninsula.
Dalmatia should definitely have a harbor..historically zara was very important.
And maybe montenegro could be coastal.
Serbia should be renamed to servia.
and i agree with finellach to make gold in kosovo

 

[unmerged(27913)]

That area was called Hum up to the begining of the 15th Century. Herzegovinia was the name of the state that split off from Bosnia when the latter fell to the Turks for the last time.

And the game begins in 15th century? Why would you want an obsolete name?
Btw. it's HERZEGOVINA not Herzegovinia.

Do try reading other people's posts from time to time, will you? Abdul the Goatherd wrote an extensive post, including this link to a map of 1204 clearly labeling that area as Slavonia.

What area? What in Gods namel are you talking about?!?

You're using Rumelia in its loose term. As a province, "it was the country bounded north by Bulgaria, west by Albania and south by the Morea, or in other words the ancient provinces, including Constantinople and Thessaloniki, of Thrace and Macedonia. The name was ultimately applied more especially to a province composed of central Albania and western Macedonia, having Monastir for its chief town." A territory North of Bosnia definately does not apply.

I am using Rumelia as it was used. Rumelia was term for all Ottoman possesions in Europe except Bosnia. This means whole Thracia and Macedonia including Greece. This means that it covered Serbia up to the river Drina and border with Bosnia, Northern modern Albania, whole Bulgaria, FYROM, Greece and part to European Turkey(Istanbul).

Btw. I am wondering what is your problem? Are you always this agressive or is is just me?

In the balkans, we could place some province betwwen istria and dalmatia as they are quite far away. Istria should be alot smaller and occupying only the peninsula.

Actually thats how it is. You can see Hive's small excerpt from the map.
Btw. the area between Istria and Dalmatia belongs to Croatia(as it should).

Serbia should be renamed to servia.

That would be really trivial change. Servia or Serbia it's the same thing...

 

[unmerged(36846)]

What do you think on greece?
I said that about serbia because i tought that some wanted to change its name.
By the way from where do you get the map editor??

 

[unmerged(27913)]

What do you think on greece?

Hive's map? I think it's fair to say that it's almost perfect. Someone will argue that Hellas is too big, but I think Grreece looks just great.

I said that about serbia because i tought that some wanted to change its name.

I think changing a name is really trivial matter and unneccesarry as well.

By the way from where do you get the map editor??

You can't get it from no where as of now...only selected few are in possesion. Hopefully it will be up for public use soon.

 

[unmerged(10777)]

Let's see,
Thessaloniki is in (Greek) Macedonia, not Thessalia, and I'm leaning towards the "we support Pelagonia" camp as far as the FYROM goes. Serbia need not be changed to Servia--I have a Serbian-descended friend who told me it IS pronounced Serbia, and I've seen several Cyrillic maps with spellings that support this. Greece really doesn't need any new islands--I think they have plenty already, but maybe Venice COULD use a province or two more in the Balkans or in the Adriatic or Mediterranean Seas. As far as Edirne goes...I like it much better than Macedonia. Zum may fit the map (size-wise) better than Herzegovina...I really don't know much about *this* region, however.