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Well, you can see that the Ebro river goes to Cantabria, and dont stop in Navarra... 
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I know, but it is not a geographical question. Rivers pose a problem for armies when they become deep and wide. Coming from Cantabria or Gipuzkoa into Navarra, the Ebro should not pose a problem, but in the south of Navarra, the Ebro should be defendable.
Fodoron,
I like your map #4 a LOT. Very sensible.
Three thoughts:
(1) Is there another name for "Madrid" province? Simply because the town of Madrid itself was not so very important until later. Frankly, I'd prefer calling it Guadalajara or something else (not necessarily city-related).
(2) There's a case for splitting Leon in two. I am not sure how Portugal is going to turn out, but if there is a Porto province separate from Beiras, then there should probably be Douro/Duero river stretching across the north. One tributary will protect the Porto/Leon frontier. But the main river will also split Leon into two halves (Leon & Salamanca).
(3) It is also tempting to impose the Guadiana river on the southern Algarve-Andalusia frontier & then swing it east, creating a natural barrier between Extremadura/La Mancha in the center and Andalusia/Cordoba in the south.
EDIT: Sort of like this (Map #5)
Kingdom of Castile:
3 - Leon
21 - Salamanca
Kingdom of Portugal
P1 - Porto (or simply "Douro", if we want to avoid city names)
P2 - Beiras
P3 - Tejo
P4 - Alentejo
P5 - Algarve
I like your map #4 a LOT. Very sensible.
Three thoughts:
(1) Is there another name for "Madrid" province? Simply because the town of Madrid itself was not so very important until later. Frankly, I'd prefer calling it Guadalajara or something else (not necessarily city-related).
(2) There's a case for splitting Leon in two. I am not sure how Portugal is going to turn out, but if there is a Porto province separate from Beiras, then there should probably be Douro/Duero river stretching across the north. One tributary will protect the Porto/Leon frontier. But the main river will also split Leon into two halves (Leon & Salamanca).
(3) It is also tempting to impose the Guadiana river on the southern Algarve-Andalusia frontier & then swing it east, creating a natural barrier between Extremadura/La Mancha in the center and Andalusia/Cordoba in the south.
EDIT: Sort of like this (Map #5)
Kingdom of Castile:
3 - Leon
21 - Salamanca
Kingdom of Portugal
P1 - Porto (or simply "Douro", if we want to avoid city names)
P2 - Beiras
P3 - Tejo
P4 - Alentejo
P5 - Algarve
Last edited:
Abdul Goatherd said:
Thanks,
(1) I'm afraid not. Madrid is an area very well defined by mountains and the river Tagus. Only in the direction of Guadalajara there is continuity, but calling the area Guadalajara is terribly more incorrect. From 1500 Madrid was already important, so it covers most of the EU2 period. Guadalajara is also a city, the problem is that in Spain few regions had a name different from their main city.
(2 & 3) Yes, there is a case, and no, it should not be done. Any region can be further split, but the game does not require to do so. Leon was lightly populated. In the question of rivers, they have a huge effect in the game. Some defend only country border rivers, I am more middle ground, but we are already going from one and half (a tiny Ebro) in vanilla to 3 in my proposal. The Duero and Guadiana are really not needed in Spain, neither for historic reasons as border during the period, nor by game purposes. Having Spain crisscrossed by multiple rivers is a sure way of getting funny results when the AI is in charge. If Portugal requires the Duero, it can be drawn up to the spanish border, but Portuguese modellers should not complain when after carefully drawing all the rivers, half of the new provinces end up defecting to Spain.
Fodoron said:
Makes sense. OK, dump the Douro.
But I think the Guadiana still makes sense. It will prevent Portugal from losing its south to easily. And maybe make it tougher for Castile to keep control of its own south, making it "possible" for Granada to recreate the heart of al-Andalus?
Abdul Goatherd said:But I think the Guadiana still makes sense. It will prevent Portugal from losing its south to easily. And maybe make it tougher for Castile to keep control of its own south, making it "possible" for Granada to recreate the heart of al-Andalus?
Again, I do not oppose a short Guadiana between Portugal and Spain, but I leave it to Portuguese modders to determine its convenience. Creating a corridor in the middle of Spain, flanked by rivers is a sure way of making Spain's life miserable when stability sinks. We are likely to see all sorts of funny results.
Regarding the South, I though we were not trying to actively promote alternate history. Granada never conquered anything and I don't see why it should be helped. The aberration mod is the place to help the underdogs of history.
I don't think the Guadiana serves as much of a defense anyway. It doesn't even run on the border for much of its course, and until 1802 that was even more so. And usually, when there was a war, the armies would manoeuvre from one bank to the other without too much trouble.
I don't see much need for the Minho river, either. It's a really puny section of the border. I'd say about 1/3 of it, at most. The terrain is much more of an obstacle than rivers on the border with Galicia. The only reason to include the Minho would be if northern Portugal were to be broken in two provinces, and I don't think that would do much good.
I don't see much need for the Minho river, either. It's a really puny section of the border. I'd say about 1/3 of it, at most. The terrain is much more of an obstacle than rivers on the border with Galicia. The only reason to include the Minho would be if northern Portugal were to be broken in two provinces, and I don't think that would do much good.
Abdul Goatherd said:But I think the Guadiana still makes sense. It will prevent Portugal from losing its south to easily. And maybe make it tougher for Castile to keep control of its own south, making it "possible" for Granada to recreate the heart of al-Andalus?
I like that idea! Put in Guadiana.
Piedro
Hive said:
Nothing wrong with Messina as the French used it as a stop over from the Levant to marselia....in the 16th century