Even Greenland could be left out. You have to ask whether any Scandinavian monarchy could ever hope to exert influence that far from home, plus the whole colony died out towards the end of the period.
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Even Greenland could be left out. You have to ask whether any Scandinavian monarchy could ever hope to exert influence that far from home, plus the whole colony died out towards the end of the period.
Yes, it would be just like Iceland now in the game, just a bif farther away. You conquer it, install 1 or 2 vassals and forget about it. Since calling up the troops from Iceland is usually not worth the effort.
Greenland had two settlements and a scattering of inuit people living there, nothing else.
It has very little relevance to the game and can easily be left out. Iceland can be left in though.
I think the current map is decent enough, and just need to be redrawn
It has very little relevance to the game and can easily be left out. Iceland can be left in though.
I think the current map is decent enough, and just need to be redrawn
i actually think that greenland and ALL the middle east should be included... the arabian-peninsula and so on... not only a part of it... after all what happens there it may change what it happen in jerusalem and so the crusader kingdoms
Last edited:
i hope that will be more provinces in Europe, and more tags, due to represent the true medieval period (more free city in italy, more in Germany and some improvement in france, england and russia) but i don't think it's necessary the preovinces of Persia and Arabia, infact muslim are not playable and so i ask, who arrived to conquest till the end of the map? Maybe someone, but not me!
I think you guys are deliberately ignoring the question of performance.
I for one think that removing 1/3 of provinces from V2 would be acceptable price if Ireland and India stayed Irish and Indian past and Romania wasn't Romania wasn't 90 % German by 1900. Especially if it also meant that the game would not slow down to crawl after 40 years of game time or so.
Same for HoI3, I only played the demo but judging from the reactions on this boards, the game would be better with less provinces.
I think there is a small but very loud minority of posters who keep on screaming "more provinces" no matter what just like there are those who threaten to boycott Paradox if the sprawling metropolis of Zgrwrski-Prski isn't placed in a way that would allow for a construction of a space shuttle launch facility so Poland can into space!
But I think the silent majority of players would appreciate if Paradox went with a map that would allow for a fun and believable experience while keeping the flow of the game swift.
I for one think that removing 1/3 of provinces from V2 would be acceptable price if Ireland and India stayed Irish and Indian past and Romania wasn't Romania wasn't 90 % German by 1900. Especially if it also meant that the game would not slow down to crawl after 40 years of game time or so.
Same for HoI3, I only played the demo but judging from the reactions on this boards, the game would be better with less provinces.
I think there is a small but very loud minority of posters who keep on screaming "more provinces" no matter what just like there are those who threaten to boycott Paradox if the sprawling metropolis of Zgrwrski-Prski isn't placed in a way that would allow for a construction of a space shuttle launch facility so Poland can into space!
But I think the silent majority of players would appreciate if Paradox went with a map that would allow for a fun and believable experience while keeping the flow of the game swift.
Even if Paradox were to use the HOI3 map (which they won't), this game would probably run significantly faster than the other Clausewitz games; It's based only on Europe.
My problem with a curtailed North Africa, Persia and Central Asia is that it creates ridiculous situations where the West is actually easily more powerful than the Muslim world and the Mongols are a joke because they lack any semblance of strategic depth.
Part of it is the low cost of massively long travel and perpetual availability of navies any size, but still...
Part of it is the low cost of massively long travel and perpetual availability of navies any size, but still...
I feel like the number of provinces in CK1 was perfect. The only thing they should change about provinces though, is not the number, but the level of things you can do to a province(and i'm not just talking about buliding and clicking on sliders)
Actually I would like to see Ethiopia in CK2 because of its rich roleplay potential in later scenarios (Gebral Maskal Lalibela (with his connection with Knights Templars), Solomonic dynasty etc). Some arguments against it are: 1) it would waste precious map space in South without adding other interesting and relevant "players" of the time; 2) until the second half of 12th century the reigns of Ethiopian rulers were largely unchronicled; 2,5) in 1066, Ethiopia wasn't ruled by a Christian dynasty (according to some sources the period without Christian monarch spanned from 980 to 1140).
But otherwise I'm quite happy with the size of a current map.
Off-map holding areas where Muslim / Mongol armies could spawn might be a way round this.
The Muslims being a walkover for the AI is a thing I hardly see in my games. In fact most of the time it was the opposite, especially before DV. How often did we not see a Muslim England or Scandinavia (or the famous sheikdom of Praha).
The same goes for the Mongols they act differently in most games. I have seen people post threads that the Mongols were to strong and threads that the Mongols were a push-over.
The area covered by the current CK-map is just fine IMO adding a few provinces, like perhaps 500 or so, spread out over the map. Would make the map just fine.
There were a few parts I felt needed more provinces and that was specifically Wales and parts of north africa. Wales was only like 4 provinces. As Duke of Leinster it made more sense to go for Wales than it did Ireland.
Nubia also needs a few more provinces, even if it means just divided the ones included into smaller bits. 3 provinces just doesn't cut it for a Kingdom that was a rival of Egypt.
Parts of N. Africa could use a few more provinces (not necesarily expanding the map but something to add more depth to that part of the map.)
Other than that, maybe Germany/Italy/Prussia?
Nubia also needs a few more provinces, even if it means just divided the ones included into smaller bits. 3 provinces just doesn't cut it for a Kingdom that was a rival of Egypt.
Parts of N. Africa could use a few more provinces (not necesarily expanding the map but something to add more depth to that part of the map.)
Other than that, maybe Germany/Italy/Prussia?
Wales has 6 provinces and if you look at the area it covers and compare it to other regions is just fine (for CK1). f.e. Denmark has 8 (for a kingdom that had conquered most of England just 2 generations before the start of the game). The kingdom of Sicily has 17 provinces, while it was one of the richest kingdoms in the mediaval world.
Firstly I have to say I agree with the basic design decision to make only Christian Realms (minus probably Ethiopia) playable. The main reason for this is a) the title of the game and it's original scope as seen in CK-I; and b) the need of additional research and design work if the islamic world were to be included as playable...
Now if we assume just Christian Realms are playable the game map should cover 1) areas ruled by Christians; and 2) areas that Christian rulers might be interested in for conquest. 1) would essentially be Europe, Bythantine Asia, Georgia, Armenia, Jerusalem and Ethiopia (which might be a problem). 2) Would be directly neighbouring areas to 1) plus maybe some places of religious importance...
One note: "Provinces" in 1) and 2) need not necessarily be at the same scale...
Now to continue with the number of "provinces" in Europe. The minimum to be included should be all counties (and probably vice-counties) that existed in Europe during the period covered by the game. In CK-I this was a major flaw as many historic counties had been ignored and therefore the map became distorted and unhistorical. That means for a realistic game the European portion of the map has to be massivly expanded (or else we might as well play on a map of Middle Earth)...
That raises the question of how many "provinces" the game can handle, particularly with older/slower computers? Obviously that's an important issue. But how big an issue this may become can probably only be determined by the designers and possibly in testing. If in the end the engine can deal with more than Europe at a historically appropriate scale than further geographic areas of interest might be included (for example Persia)...
P.S.: Just to illustrate my issue with the CK-I map. The CK-I province of Luxembourg historically consisted of the medieval counties of Luxembourg, Arlon, Durbuy, Laroche, Chiny, Salm, Vianden, Rethel, Namur (might have been entirely or in part within CK-I Hainaut), "Bitburg" (don't think that county still existed withing the game's time frame but it was an important subdivision of Luxembourg proper), "Stavelot-Malmedy" (monastic principality) and I'm sure I forgot some. Oh and while I'm at it, the historic duchy of Limburg is not even included (not as a duchy, nor as a county) yet it was one of the more powerful players in Lothier. Very similar issues can be found throughout the CK-I European map...
P.P.S.: I just realised the county of Sponheim/Spanheim is not included either (probably not in CK-I Luxembourg). And Salm missing actually means two counties by that name missing. Oh and of course Bar is missing, and Mousson and the list goes on and on and on... And I'm just familiar with medieval fiefs within modern day Luxembourg, Belgium, eastern France, Germany west of the Rhine and parts of the Netherlands...
Now if we assume just Christian Realms are playable the game map should cover 1) areas ruled by Christians; and 2) areas that Christian rulers might be interested in for conquest. 1) would essentially be Europe, Bythantine Asia, Georgia, Armenia, Jerusalem and Ethiopia (which might be a problem). 2) Would be directly neighbouring areas to 1) plus maybe some places of religious importance...
One note: "Provinces" in 1) and 2) need not necessarily be at the same scale...
Now to continue with the number of "provinces" in Europe. The minimum to be included should be all counties (and probably vice-counties) that existed in Europe during the period covered by the game. In CK-I this was a major flaw as many historic counties had been ignored and therefore the map became distorted and unhistorical. That means for a realistic game the European portion of the map has to be massivly expanded (or else we might as well play on a map of Middle Earth)...
That raises the question of how many "provinces" the game can handle, particularly with older/slower computers? Obviously that's an important issue. But how big an issue this may become can probably only be determined by the designers and possibly in testing. If in the end the engine can deal with more than Europe at a historically appropriate scale than further geographic areas of interest might be included (for example Persia)...
P.S.: Just to illustrate my issue with the CK-I map. The CK-I province of Luxembourg historically consisted of the medieval counties of Luxembourg, Arlon, Durbuy, Laroche, Chiny, Salm, Vianden, Rethel, Namur (might have been entirely or in part within CK-I Hainaut), "Bitburg" (don't think that county still existed withing the game's time frame but it was an important subdivision of Luxembourg proper), "Stavelot-Malmedy" (monastic principality) and I'm sure I forgot some. Oh and while I'm at it, the historic duchy of Limburg is not even included (not as a duchy, nor as a county) yet it was one of the more powerful players in Lothier. Very similar issues can be found throughout the CK-I European map...
P.P.S.: I just realised the county of Sponheim/Spanheim is not included either (probably not in CK-I Luxembourg). And Salm missing actually means two counties by that name missing. Oh and of course Bar is missing, and Mousson and the list goes on and on and on... And I'm just familiar with medieval fiefs within modern day Luxembourg, Belgium, eastern France, Germany west of the Rhine and parts of the Netherlands...
Denmark always did feel a bit cramped... but nothing like taking over norway & England to compensate for that
Oh I forgot that point. Muslim power could be abstracted and not use the same models as Christian states...
Another point I forgot in my post. I like the idea to include important cities as separate provinces. These would have to be cities that had a certain degree of autonomy (London, Paris, Cologne etc.). This might be particularly important to portray historic Italy, the northern Low Countries, the middle Rhine etc.
Of course the question would be how to implement this and how/where to set the cutting point on which cities to include and which not to include (and how to avoid a new problem like the missing counties in CK-I, just now missing cities in CK-II (missing lordships in CK-III?))...
Of course the question would be how to implement this and how/where to set the cutting point on which cities to include and which not to include (and how to avoid a new problem like the missing counties in CK-I, just now missing cities in CK-II (missing lordships in CK-III?))...
Uhh, more Terra Incognita around the edges, so that I can normally see Nubia/North Sweden/etc !
!
I've often seen the Sheiks of Praha and the Emirs of Sjaelland, yes. But no less common than Counts of Mecca and Dukes of Algiers or Baghdad, and if any game ever ended with one of the two civilisations being completely extinguished, it's almost always mega-Burgundy or something like that owning all of the East, hardly ever the other way.
I must admit my bias, my primary interest never lies in Western Europe. If the game were specifically limited to just Europe and had mechanics that only provided for Western expertience, I would not buy it, as much as I love CK. If one can potentially allow play as non-Christians, I will, provided one can mod in a better map relatively easily.
Adding more provinces rather than more territory could also be a solution. Egypt could certainly use a few. But ultimately, as long as the design does not make it impossible to change it to include more of the world, I'm optimistic.