Marcher lords

[Aetius]

Will Marcher Lords have automatic CBs on neighbouring provinces outside the domain of their feudal lord?

Both the English Marcher Lords along the Welsh border and the German Marquises along the Polish border were allowed to expand their realms if they could.

 

[Winkelried]

Originally posted by Aetius
Will Marcher Lords have automatic CBs on neighbouring provinces outside the domain of their feudal lord?

Both the English Marcher Lords along the Welsh border and the German Marquises along the Polish border were allowed to expand their realms if they could.

I doubt it. This would speed up world conquest by the human player. Once the marquis conquered the borderlands (maybe even with help from the king) they become the new frontier and the marquis gains a CB on what are now the new borderlands etc. Or did I misunderstand you?

 

[unmerged(11206)]

But just like the "Flow of Cultures" thread suggests, this would only be valid in certain circumstances.

The Margraves of Brandenburg, Misnia, Lusatia, Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, etc., were encouraged to extend their borders, but at the expense of pagan Slavs & developing "wilderness" kingdoms to the east. Same with the Marcher Lords of Wales and probably Ireland.

But there were no Margraves to extend Germany's frontiers west into France. Established, recognized, powerful Christian kingdoms were basically exempt from this treatment, which is a big reason why the lords of Poland & Hungary wanted crowns and converted to Christianity: to keep out the German colonizing/missionizing efforts that were threatening their lands.

So maybe it would work for Germany expanding east, or England into the Celtic lands, or Spain into the Moorish south. But it wouldnt apply to every noble with the title "Margrave", at least by the end of the period; but originally, it was what it means: Count of the March, the warlord of a military frontier against "barbarian" neighbors.

 

[Aetius]

Re: Re: Marcher lords

Originally posted by Winkelried
I doubt it. This would speed up world conquest by the human player. Once the marquis conquered the borderlands (maybe even with help from the king) they become the new frontier and the marquis gains a CB on what are now the new borderlands etc. Or did I misunderstand you?

I don't know how it worked in practice. I guess that new Marches would have to be established and the old march would be converted into a "normal" dutchy. I am a bit curious about if this will be in.

 

[Pwyll]

English/Norman moving into the celtic lands were christian though Infact the celts had been christian longer than the English.

 

[unmerged(5367)]

Isnt this best handled by having a constant crusading CB against all non-christians?
I think so.

 

[unmerged(11206)]

Like Pwyll said though, it wasnt just pagans. In the East, many became Christian to try to halt the German advance, but they kept coming. In Britain, see Pwyll's post.

I guess societies that were thought of as not as advanced? Militarily, feudally, economically, and so on? Or not as organized, like the Wends?

 

[Martinus]

Originally posted by The camel
Isnt this best handled by having a constant crusading CB against all non-christians?
I think so.

Indeed, I seem to remember that this will be the case in CK - you don't need to have CB against heathens (or, conversely, maybe you have a permanent CB against them) in order to attack them.

This will precisely simulate the Marcher Lords' special position (and obviously make this position desireable by human players).

 

[unmerged(11206)]

Originally posted by Martinus
Indeed, I seem to remember that this will be the case in CK - you don't need to have CB against heathens (or, conversely, maybe you have a permanent CB against them) in order to attack them.

This will precisely simulate the Marcher Lords' special position (and obviously make this position desireable by human players).

What about, for example, Polish lands after Poland became Christian? The Germans still pushed into Silesia & Pomerania to such an extent that Frederick I eventually declared them German fiefs.

Prussia was a crusade, but Silesia? One of the reasons contemporaries give for the abortion of the Wendish Crusade (1147) was that the army invading Pomerania "realized" the people there were Christian (although the real reason was more likely its failure to take Stettin ).

 

[Aetius]

The Marches along the Welsh border were "expansionistic" as were those along the Polish border. I think that is pretty clear.

How about the Marches in Italy? Was it just a title or did they have a theoretic right to attack the Lombards and the Byzantine areas?

 

[unmerged(11206)]

Originally posted by Aetius
The Marches along the Welsh border were "expansionistic" as were those along the Polish border. I think that is pretty clear.

How about the Marches in Italy? Was it just a title or did they have a theoretic right to attack the Lombards and the Byzantine areas?

Originally the same as the German margraves. The marks of the east (Friuli, Verona, Treviso, Istria) were erected to keep out the Magyars, Balkan Slavs, etc. Otto I's victory at the Lechfeld eased the pressure on them and the marches were thereafter administered by either Bavaria, Carinthia, Carniola, and/or the Zahringen Margraves of Baden.

Those of the west (Piedmont-Turin, Ivrea, Montferrat, Tortona-Lunigiana) were to keep out the Muslim raiders from Provence and the Western Mediterranean (and maybe even the Burgundians who kept "invading" the kingdom?). I dont remember which princes were involved, but some of the western margraves joined with the Count of Provence to wipe out the Muslim base in the region.

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Lechfeld was in 955..wasn´t it? ..

 

[unmerged(11206)]

Originally posted by Wasa
Lechfeld was in 955..wasn´t it? ..

Yes, but Italian marches were established early (during independent period before Ottos, who attached eastern marks to Bavaria, Carinthia, etc.). I think the Muslim base at Fraxinetum (?) was wiped out in 10th c. too, wasnt it?