• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(5190)

Captain
Aug 3, 2001
367
0
Visit site
How did the Maronites and Copts survive the crusades?
What about the christian communities in Iraq and Syria?
I was amazed to discover that most Arabs in the United States are Christians.
 
Originally posted by senex
How did the Maronites and Copts survive the crusades?
What about the christian communities in Iraq and Syria?
I was amazed to discover that most Arabs in the United States are Christians.

The Maronites are a result of the Crusades. The Muslims usually had no problem with the Christians, so there is nothing to survive. In some areas there were revenge killings for earlier Christian massacres, but no real pogroms. I don't know when the Middle East became mainly muslim.
 
Senex, would these Christian Arabs be Maronites from Lebanon? Because they had a big civil war, with the Maronites being pro-government and the Muslim Druze being anti. Thus big slaughter of Maronites.

ONe reason for Christian communities surviving in IRaq or Syria I suppose is because the Mongol Ilkhans gave the Nestorian Christians great privileges at one point, and never really persecuted them.
 
Originally posted by Dimwit
Senex, would these Christian Arabs be Maronites from Lebanon? Because they had a big civil war, with the Maronites being pro-government and the Muslim Druze being anti. Thus big slaughter of Maronites.

ONe reason for Christian communities surviving in IRaq or Syria I suppose is because the Mongol Ilkhans gave the Nestorian Christians great privileges at one point, and never really persecuted them.

The problem with that theory is that (a) the Ilkhanate lasted not even a century (it imploded spectacularly after 1335), and (b) it never extablished control over Syria for any extended period of time. The real reason was that no nation in the area had the will or the ability to wipe out Christian enclaves until much later in history. The Ottomans would have been the first, but their system of government was set up in such a way as to easily rule and handle religious minorities (the millet system)
 
Coming from someone who knows quite a few of them - most Arabs in the USA are Christians because they were members of Christian minorities there, and left for the USA due to persecution following the independence of the Arab states and Israel (most notably Iraq) after World War II.

This is, perhaps, due to the fact that most Arabs had previously been under either Turkish or European rule since roughly the end of the crusades period, and so they had not been subject to persecution by the government until that time.

FYI - there is a large community of both Christian and Muslim Iraqis in Southern California - both Kurdish and Arab. In fact, one THIRD of my eighth grade class were Christian Arabs whose parents were refugees from Iraq. And there's a "Kurdish Human Rights Watch" organization whose offices are six blocks from that same school. (You haven't lived until you've been to a church festival with fundraiser booths for the Iraqi National Congress, Kurdish Human Rights Watch, and Sinn Fein.....)
 
Last edited:
The Real Origins of Maronites and Copts

As a Maronite Catholic (Recovering) myslef as well as a Philosophy/History Double major who spent a great deeal of time studyign teh Middle East and Its religions:

Genrally, None fo the major Christian Sects in teh Middle East are the Results of the Crusades. Under the Byzantine Empire at its height, nearly the whole fo the Modern Middle East, North of Modern Saudi Arabia, As throughly Christianized Before, and well into, The Moslem Conquest. IN fact, there are estimates that the general Population of the Area was still majority Christian at the time fo teh first Crusades--at the time, Islam was a much more tolerant Religion than Christinatinty, and generally allowed locals to keep their religion (provided they were "people of the book" Christian or Jewish worshipping the God of Abraham), provided they pay a special Tax

The Splintering of the Churches was th product of the Byzantine Policy of establishing a recognized Orthodoxy--and hence unifying the Empire under a single Christina Sect. THsi was done trhough the 7 Great, or Ecumenical, COunsels of the Early Church. By far the msot devisive (as far as splitting off "non-orthadox" sects) was teh Counsel fo Chalcedon (the first I belive, I also forget the year--but I think it was late 6th Century CE--but before the rise of Islam). That was the Point where Jesus was declared Both Human and Divine--in the same body/form. Baisically, that split off both Extreems--the Copts in Egypt, who only accepted the divine aspect; and the Nestorians in Mesopotamia, who only accepted the Human Aspect (at leas tI believe that is the Nestorians, but I know I have the Copts right). Hence--these groups Became persecuted as religious minorites in the Byzantine Empire, despite bing teh vast majority in their respective Provinces. As such, they came to resent their "foreign occupiers," the Greeks, and led them to welcome the more tolerant Arabs as liberators--teh famous story of the Christians in Alexadria opening the Gates to the Invading Arab Armies.

The Maronites have a less doctrinal, adn more accidental History. Generally, they are the decedents of teh followers of a 4th Centure CE Hermit who lived in teh deserts of Modern Syria named Maron. During the Byzantine/Arab struggle for Antioch in teh 10th Centurey (I think I have the date right) the Patriarchal Trhone became vacant, tand the local Christians, the Maronites, Placed their own canidate on the throne--who was recognized by Rome (the Pope) but not Constantinople (the Emporer). As the fighitng continued--the Maronites were forced fled Antioch, but took their Patriach of Antioch with them, to the Mountans of Lebanon where it was much easier to defend themselves. Wehn teh Crusaders arrived, they found a christina people who had fled to the mountains to avoid persecution by both Greeks (for supporting and being recognized by Rome) and Arabs, much less tolerent followign the Wars w/ the Byzantines.

In conclusion--the various Christian Sects are organic--they are not the results of the Crusades, but the decednets of the dominat religion, and its varoius sects, that predated the Arab Conquest.
 
I had a syrian friend explain it to me once and he explained the catholic/orthodox split as a result of crusader interaction. Was there any switches of churches from the Orthodox to the Catholic side as a result of the Crusade?
 
The synod in Chalchedon was held in 451 :)

The Nestorians broke with the Orthodox Church in 431 over the dispute of Christ's nature. They believed in the dual character of Christ, i.e., that he had two separate but equal natures, the human Jesus and the divine Christ. Therefore, Mary was not the mother of God but only of the man Jesus.

The Council of Chalcedon, representing the mainstream of Christianity, in 451 confirmed the dual nature of Christ in one person; Mary was therefore the mother of a single person, mystically and simultaneously both human and divine.

The result of Chalchedon was the splitting off of the Monophysite Christians, which includes the Coptic and the Jacobite Syrian and Armenian Churches. They taught that Christ's divinity overpowered his humanity, resulting in a single divine nature.

The Monothelites, precursors of the modern Maronites, tried to evolve a compromise by postulating that Christ had two natures, human and divine, but a single will.
 
Originally posted by Aetius
I had a syrian friend explain it to me once and he explained the catholic/orthodox split as a result of crusader interaction. Was there any switches of churches from the Orthodox to the Catholic side as a result of the Crusade?
Not from the eastern crusades - that I know of. There were attempts on reconciling the churches all the way up the the Council of Florence and later. There are sects in the east that has reunited with Rome (The various Uniate Churces), but these came much, much later...
 
Originally posted by Havard
Not from the eastern crusades - that I know of. There were attempts on reconciling the churches all the way up the the Council of Florence and later. There are sects in the east that has reunited with Rome (The various Uniate Churces), but these came much, much later...

As I understood it, it was more like choosing to ally with the crusaders against Byzantium (through intermarriage and like), rather than as a part of Papal diplomacy.