Marx and Race

[DoomBunny]

As far as not telling the people or the army goes, that's dubious. Whilst there wasn't an explicit "We're out and out to kill the Jews in an industrial fashion", there were a hell of a lot of hints dropped, a lot of veiled references made, a lot of evidence that things were happening, and a lot of complicity, particularly by the army and railway workers. It was pretty much an open secret in Germany that the Jews were being exterminated.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Himmler was once overheard by military telephone operators giving Bormann an update on the execution of X number of Jews in a camp. They then heard the Brown Emminence, the man who controlled Hitlers daily schedule, mercilessly chastise Himmler for not using the agreed upon code word of ‘Evacuation’ rather than execution. Himmler meekly apologized.

 

[Arilou]

As far as not telling the people or the army goes, that's dubious. Whilst there wasn't an explicit "We're out and out to kill the Jews in an industrial fashion", there were a hell of a lot of hints dropped, a lot of veiled references made, a lot of evidence that things were happening, and a lot of complicity, particularly by the army and railway workers. It was pretty much an open secret in Germany that the Jews were being exterminated.

People in the army would 100% know that jews were being murdered, since they were often either participating or at least seeing it done. ("Clean Wehrmacht" is a myth) There's even a bit where Manstein complains that the Einzatsgruppen aren't sharing the loot from murdered jews with the rest of the army. Remember, a good chunk of the Holocaust was simply german soldiers marching into villages and shooting the jews.

The camps are harder to quantify, everyone knew jews were being off to camp, and anyone not an idiot knew nothing good was happening there, but the exact level of industrial genocide probably wasn't known (just "lots of jews are ending up in camps and never seen again") it was probably fairly easy for most people to put the pieces together, but on the other hand there were strong incentives not to do so.

 

[DoomBunny]

Himmler was once overheard by military telephone operators giving Bormann an update on the execution of X number of Jews in a camp. They then heard the Brown Emminence, the man who controlled Hitlers daily schedule, mercilessly chastise Himmler for not using the agreed upon code word of ‘Evacuation’ rather than execution. Himmler meekly apologized.

This, if it even happened, wouldn't really change the point. There was far too much evidence that the holocaust was happening for people not to know, and indeed, it was generally held as an open secret.

People in the army would 100% know that jews were being murdered, since they were often either participating or at least seeing it done. ("Clean Wehrmacht" is a myth) There's even a bit where Manstein complains that the Einzatsgruppen aren't sharing the loot from murdered jews with the rest of the army. Remember, a good chunk of the Holocaust was simply german soldiers marching into villages and shooting the jews.

The camps are harder to quantify, everyone knew jews were being off to camp, and anyone not an idiot knew nothing good was happening there, but the exact level of industrial genocide probably wasn't known (just "lots of jews are ending up in camps and never seen again") it was probably fairly easy for most people to put the pieces together, but on the other hand there were strong incentives not to do so.

In terms of the army, I'd guess it varies. If they were on the Eastern Front or directly involved in it, then you're quite correct to state that ignorance would be near impossible. If they were just sitting on some part of the Atlantic Wall for 4 years then I'd imagine one wouldn't see much more than a normal civilian.

In terms of the camps themselves, there's substantial evidence that it was known about. Or at least, that it was known that the Jews were being killed (specifics aside). One of the common things that came up in German civilian discussions of the bombing was that the Allies were doing it as revenge for what the Germans were doing to the Jews; in other words, that the Jewish powers were actively engaged in a war of extermination with Germany and that both were quite literally trying to wipe each other out.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

This, if it even happened, wouldn't really change the point. There was far too much evidence that the holocaust was happening for people not to know, and indeed, it was generally held as an open secret.



In terms of the army, I'd guess it varies. If they were on the Eastern Front or directly involved in it, then you're quite correct to state that ignorance would be near impossible. If they were just sitting on some part of the Atlantic Wall for 4 years then I'd imagine one wouldn't see much more than a normal civilian.

In terms of the camps themselves, there's substantial evidence that it was known about. Or at least, that it was known that the Jews were being killed (specifics aside). One of the common things that came up in German civilian discussions of the bombing was that the Allies were doing it as revenge for what the Germans were doing to the Jews; in other words, that the Jewish powers were actively engaged in a war of extermination with Germany and that both were quite literally trying to wipe each other out.

I tend to agree with you.

My point is not that this whole thing was so secret no one knew what was going on, and your point about how much the average German soldier or citizen knew about the Final Solution depends on where they were standing is spot on. But -- within the party, even at the highest levels -- a level of lying, deception and secrecy was mandated; how much more so at the lower levels?

Regarding your point that some people justify strategic bombing as revenge for the Shoah, that does not mesh with a general understanding of the era and sounds like a internet debate tactic inserted in recent years. Strategic Bombing of civilian centers (such as Dresden) as revenge for the London Blitz and Coventry, there is your answer.

 

[DoomBunny]

I tend to agree with you.

My point is not that this whole thing was so secret no one knew what was going on, and your point about how much the average German soldier or citizen knew about the Final Solution depends on where they were standing is spot on. But -- within the party, even at the highest levels -- a level of lying, deception and secrecy was mandated; how much more so at the lower levels?

Regarding your point that some people justify strategic bombing as revenge for the Shoah, that does not mesh with a general understanding of the era and sounds like a internet debate tactic inserted in recent years. Strategic Bombing of civilian centers (such as Dresden) as revenge for the London Blitz and Coventry, there is your answer.

That's part of it. However, German civilians did talk about it in the context of a revenge for the actions against the Jews.

 

[cpreston5]

Nicholas Stargardt's book The German War lays out the weird progression of public knowledge of the Holocaust quite well. The state was forced into toning down its rhetoric when it got to the time to actually deport the bulk of the Jews, but knowledge then inevitably filtered through in letters from the front etc. and coalesced into a rough sense of the enormity of the crime, and eventually officials began to refer publicly to the elephant in the room at the end ofthe war, when the shared guilt offered a desperate way of uniting people.

 

[DanubianCossak]

I am pretty sure he was against antisemitism, he was from a Jewish after all. Though I don't consider Jews a race, but some people do.

Modern, mainstream understanding of racism (influenced by postmodernism) and used in particular by liberals, is that any discrimination of people (to be even more precise ascribing different values to different groups of people, be it based on skin color, eye color or height), along any criteria is racist. So even though Jews or Muslims are not races, discriminatory speech or behaviors are.