Mercenaries irl

[Mr. Wiggles]

So, im reading the Histories of Poliby and these are my thoughts on how mercenaries worked back then and how they work in game.
First of all there are simply too many of them, if one company was wiped out it was the end of it, sorry no fighting men anymore, wait for the next generation and come back in 10 years. They were rare and expensive, too.
Also they had the tendency to not join lost wars, rebel when they did not get paid (The revolt of the mercenaries against Carthage) and leave their contractor when things were dire.

Also, in game they are recruited instantly and from everywhere. IRL no fucking way Carthage would have been able to hire mercenaries from rome controlled territories. Instead, they had to phisically send emissaries to various regions where the local population was favourable to them (Liguria, Hispania, north africa) to go get (bribe) them and only then ship them at the employer's expenses to the hot zone. No way they would have been allowed to cross enemy territory witout being reduced to smithereens, too.

 

[IsaacCAT]

I totally agree with you. Mercs should be scarce as you say and as I have suggested below, non integrated cultures could be hired as auxiliaries, sort of mercs+levies:

For non integrated cultures, I suggest a new option to raise auxiliaries for a fee, like mercernaries, from freemen POPs of that non integrated culture. They will have a monthly price, will have a non integrated culture commander, and if they die you will loose POPs. The worst of mercs and levies

 

[The_Sound_Of_Violence]

So, im reading the Histories of Poliby and these are my thoughts on how mercenaries worked back then and how they work in game.
First of all there are simply too many of them, if one company was wiped out it was the end of it, sorry no fighting men anymore, wait for the next generation and come back in 10 years. They were rare and expensive, too.
Also they had the tendency to not join lost wars, rebel when they did not get paid (The revolt of the mercenaries against Carthage) and leave their contractor when things were dire.

The passage (beginning of book II) where a band of Gallic mercenaries surrenders the town of Phoenike which they were supposed to defend to Illyrian pirates, after they tried to do the same thing to the Carthaginians in Sicily a few years earlier during the first Punic war is very telling of how unreliable that type of troops could or was considered to be.

Also, after a certain point the size of those mercenaries bands (25K, seriously?) is way too exaggerated.

 

[Nominus]

The passage (beginning of book II) where a band of Gallic mercenaries surrenders the town of Phoenike which they were supposed to defend to Illyrian pirates, after they tried to do the same thing to the Carthaginians in Sicily a few years earlier during the first Punic war is very telling of how unreliable that type of troops could or was considered to be.

Also, after a certain point the size of those mercenaries bands (25K, seriously?) is way too exaggerated.

Iirc even Alexander the Great carried mercanaries with him, cheap slingthrowers and so did Dareios and his army was quite numerable, so I don't think 25k is exaggregated, but it should be rather expensive and rare to see.

 

[The_Sound_Of_Violence]

Iirc even Alexander the Great carried mercanaries with him, cheap slingthrowers and so did Dareios and his army was quite numerable, so I don't think 25k is exaggregated, but it should be rather expensive and rare to see.

25K under certain circumstances as the total of your mercenary force doesn't seem irrealistic. It's the fact that so many single bands would be that size that puzzles me.

 

[DukeLeto42]

How about this as a quick sketch for a future mercenary system, to take some of these points into account:

• One merc company per region. You cannot recruit them from a region you do not have a presence in (your own provinces or subjects). This reduces the total number of merc armies, and addresses how they are recruited (since they can recruit into somewhere you have a presence).
• Mercenaries are based upon the constituent cultures of their home region, with strength based on the total number of pops. Their size is also based on their recent history - long periods of being hired will grow their size, and long inaction will shrink them. Nasty battles and defeats would also impact their size, as would lots of looting. Misuse of the merc bands you can hire would therefore reduce their effectiveness.
• Mercenaries, now a long-lasting aspect of regional identity could make use of the legion system, gaining traits over the years. For example, a "balaeric slinger" trait so Carthage can get them in their employ.
• Mercenaries are effectively a tag of their own, with a handful of characters again based on the major cultures that make up the band. Their hire cost is proportional to their opinion of you, and that is in part based with how you relate to those cultures - integrating cultures you hire mercs from makes it cheaper.
• Finally, in acting like any other army in the current system, mercenary bands could be split and combined.

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

I totally agree with you. Mercs should be scarce as you say and as I have suggested below, non integrated cultures could be hired as auxiliaries, sort of mercs+levies:

As I kept reading the histories and relative notes from the experts, Lybians employed by Cathage came from carthaginian-controlled territories in NA, probably they were not mercenaries but a sort of militia composed by second-class (but free) men.

Ligurians and hiberians, however, came from their own independent countries/tribes and were the "real" mercenaries

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Does anyone know if roman mercenaries ever existed? It seems to me some cultures had a sort of aversion for mercenary life, while others thrived on it.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Does anyone know if roman mercenaries ever existed? It seems to me some cultures had a sort of aversion for mercenary life, while others thrived on it.

Rome was a militarized society, plenty of opportunities for warring.

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Rome was a militarized society, plenty of opportunities for warring.

Most people lived in militarized societies back then. "Tribes" aside, greeks had plenty of opportunities for warring, too. They seemed to have a thing for mercenary life.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Most people lived in militarized societies back then. "Tribes" aside, greeks had plenty of opportunities for warring, too. They seemed to have a thing for mercenary life.

[BGCOLOR=rgb(65, 65, 72)]Mercenary life was an opportunity for young males willing to wage war. Rome gave many opportunities as they were almost always in war. But there were Italian mercenaries, and they were very opportunistic, always looking to be on the winning side:[/BGCOLOR]


“The Romans perhaps created ideal conditions for Carthage to recruit Italian and Gallic mercenaries in the third century BCE: disruptive conquests in both northern and southern Italy and the limits that Roman hegemony placed on local warfare likely drove many southern Italian and Gallic warriors from defeated communities into Carthaginian service. The mercenary captain Spendius, an escaped Roman slave and a general in the mercenary revolt in 241, represented at least one Italian mercenary pursuing Carthaginian service to escape the Roman order.44 The trend continued into the Second Punic War. In 218 BCE, Hannibal sent 300 Ligurians to garrison Carthage, indicating that Liguria remained a source of mercenary recruits, although here in very modest numbers.45 Indeed, in some ways Hannibal’s strategy in the Second Punic War can be seen as asserting Carthaginian hegemony over regions that had previously been prime sources for mercenary recruitment”

Excerpt From
Soldiers and Silver
Michael J. Taylor

Soldiers and Silver

History · 2020

books.apple.com

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

[BGCOLOR=rgb(65, 65, 72)]Mercenary life was an opportunity for young males willing to wage war. Rome gave many opportunities as they were almost always in war. But there were Italian mercenaries, and they were very opportunistic, always looking to be on the winning side:[/BGCOLOR]


“The Romans perhaps created ideal conditions for Carthage to recruit Italian and Gallic mercenaries in the third century BCE: disruptive conquests in both northern and southern Italy and the limits that Roman hegemony placed on local warfare likely drove many southern Italian and Gallic warriors from defeated communities into Carthaginian service. The mercenary captain Spendius, an escaped Roman slave and a general in the mercenary revolt in 241, represented at least one Italian mercenary pursuing Carthaginian service to escape the Roman order.44 The trend continued into the Second Punic War. In 218 BCE, Hannibal sent 300 Ligurians to garrison Carthage, indicating that Liguria remained a source of mercenary recruits, although here in very modest numbers.45 Indeed, in some ways Hannibal’s strategy in the Second Punic War can be seen as asserting Carthaginian hegemony over regions that had previously been prime sources for mercenary recruitment”

Excerpt From
Soldiers and Silver
Michael J. Taylor

Soldiers and Silver

History · 2020

books.apple.com

This material may be protected by copyright.

I just read the passage about Spendius, as the doc said he was a campanian slave fugitive (Poliby said he fomented the Mercenaries revolt against Carthage because he feared romans could reclaim their slaves). I infer from this that recruiting soldiers from slaves was not that uncommon, but they did not form the bulk of mercenary forces unlike gauls, greeks...
Poliby mentions Ligurians multiple times but they were not under roman thumb by the time of the second first punic war.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Mercs or auxiliaries, there will be always men willing to go to war for money.

On the other hand, what is exceptional is what Rome achieved with their citizen soldiers, they fought for their lands and for the state. Michael J. Taylor says that is consequence of how the republic involved all citizens on the direction of Rome as a nation. Something similar for the Greeks but maybe less popular and more elitist on their case.