Merging AGCEEP with Europa Portugalis

[Toio]

First - Indian posessions, and mostly importantly, the spice trade, was what contributed vastly to the portuguese economy. Things like Sugar or Slave trade werent really important before we lost most of our asian trade. I wonder why the hell you say they were a drain on our resources because it was exactly the oposite. Yes corruption was vast during Spanish governance of Portugal, but even so most of the income came from the spice trade.

Spice trade benefits for POR only lasted about 50 years, then by 1549 they withdrew their spices from sale in Antwerp and only sold some (usually nutmeg) in Lisbon. the problem for POR was the long sea voyage which would spoil and erode the aroma of the Spices. Venice reestablised its german and dutch markets for spices by around 1555

http://books.google.com/books?id=fv...8&dq=portuguese+spice+trade&lr=#PRA1-PA165,M1

plus read from page 46 in Europe in the sixteenth century by H.G. Koenigsberger

And quite frankly, our empire in asia collapsed only due to pure negligence from our Spanish "brothers". After Filipe II of Spain (Filipe I of Portugal), died, his heirs decided to put all their power into their servants. Guys like Duke of Lerma didnt care much for Portuguese possessions.

true

Actually they totaly dishonored what the Cortes in Portugal had decreed. Things like apointing spanish governors to portuguese jobs, or sending our men to fight for spanish interests, are just 2 out of many dishonorable acts.

true, the spanish did this to Aragon as well, but there cortes was much more powerful, in having the ability to withhold taxes etc

The dutch conquests during Spanish control of Portugal, were, for the most part, unchallenged. They just had to beat the garrisons, because our great rulers didnt bother sending forces to reconquer the lost provinces. And except for that little aid against the dutch fleet near Brazil, Spain didnt do much.

They could not , they had no money or manpower

As for considering Portugal quite weak... Laughable. Check Afonso de Albuquerque - the Portuguese Mars - and subquent ass kicking at Battle of Diu by Francisco Almeida. More then 100 enemy ships against little more then 20 portuguese ships. Not even a combined fleet of the Ottoman Empire/Venice/Mameluks/Gujarat/Ragusa/Calicut could beat us. Not bad, for weaklings i would say.

venice and ragusa only sent advisors and no ships.

 

[BurningEGO]

In January of 1580, King Sebastião died quite unexpectedly in his sleep. Predeceased by his uncle, Henrique, the royal house of Aviz had officially died out. Catarina Bragança, as daughter of Prince Duarte (son of Manuel I), had the strongest claim of any of the nobles, although some were displeased with the idea of a female monarch. Facing little opposition, Catarina became Queen of Portugal.

Catarina was not the only possible heir to the throne. There was a Bastard - António, Prior do Crato. He had a large support from the peasantry - in fact, he had more people at his side then either Catarina or Filipe II of Spain.

But not the means to become King.

 

[Garbon]

Catarina was not the only possible heir to the throne. There was a Bastard - António, Prior do Crato. He had a large support from the peasantry - in fact, he had more people at his side then either Catarina or Filipe II of Spain.

But not the means to become King.

Well it's a good thing that nothing in that description says she was the only possible heir.

Both Antonio and Filipe II have chances to take Portugal in the standard sequence (although that's hardly an exhaustive list of potential heirs). The thought behind that particular event, however, is that if Sebastião and many Portuguese troops not died in Morocco, a more stable Portugal would have successfully fended of Spain's claims and would not have been so susceptible to such a peasant uprising.

 

[Garbon]

Actually they totaly dishonored what the Cortes in Portugal had decreed. Things like apointing spanish governors to portuguese jobs, or sending our men to fight for spanish interests, are just 2 out of many dishonorable acts.

Not particularly dishonorable, Castile was simply doing what it did to every kingdom it subjugated...using them to suit the best interests of Castile.

 

[BurningEGO]

Not particularly dishonorable, Castile was simply doing what it did to every kingdom it subjugated...using them to suit the best interests of Castile.

Thats the problem. We choose the same king of Spain - we didnt "join" Spain, or became their province. These are different things. The Cortes clearly stated we would be independent from Spain. We would retain our own coins, Portuguese people would be elected to Portuguese jobs, etc etc.

Since the spaniards - as always - didnt honour their word, therefore what they did was dishonorable.

Regardless - i doubt it did aid Spain in any way. What Portugal lost, was won by either the Dutch or English - Spanish enemies. While Portugal got weak, Spain's enemies got strong. If Holland didnt have the economical means to do war - which was stolen from the Portuguese - i wonder if they would have been so sucessful.

 

[Garbon]

Thats the problem. We choose the same king of Spain - we didnt "join" Spain, or became their province. These are different things. The Cortes clearly stated we would be independent from Spain. We would retain our own coins, Portuguese people would be elected to Portuguese jobs, etc etc.

Since the spaniards - as always - didnt honour their word, therefore what they did was dishonorable.

Or perhaps Portugal was overly naive?

 

[unmerged(75851)]

Well we've agreed that there should be A.I. events to adjust government policies as the A.I. isn't smart enough to do it on it's own.

But what about stuff to make the A.I. more competitive about sending out colonists and trading, and something that keeps Spain from taking hundreds of years to fully conquer the Aztecs and Incas. Shouldn't there be something for those things?

 

[Garbon]

Well we've agreed that there should be A.I. events to adjust government policies as the A.I. isn't smart enough to do it on it's own.

We already have that. What we don't have, and I don't see us getting, is events that will maximize AI slides in ahistorical ways.

But what about stuff to make the A.I. more competitive about sending out colonists and trading, and something that keeps Spain from taking hundreds of years to fully conquer the Aztecs and Incas. Shouldn't there be something for those things?

Also, we do have events to help AIs with colonizing. They might not work ideally, but developing things that work ideally...takes quite some time.

 

[Toio]

We already have that. What we don't have, and I don't see us getting, is events that will maximize AI slides in ahistorical ways.

we can create a new random AI "only" events folder, which could have only slider moves depending on certain circumstances, be it, countrysize, infra level, land level, religion etc etc

 

[Garbon]

I don't see the benefit in adding more randomness.

 

[sturmvogel]

First - Indian posessions, and mostly importantly, the spice trade, was what contributed vastly to the portuguese economy. Things like Sugar or Slave trade werent really important before we lost most of our asian trade. I wonder why the hell you say they were a drain on our resources because it was exactly the oposite. Yes corruption was vast during Spanish governance of Portugal, but even so most of the income came from the spice trade.

Malyn Newitt, A History of Portuguese Overseas Expansion 1400-1669, p. 183:

Between 1600 and 1620 the sugar and slave complex which linked Brazil and Angola became enormously profitable

That's a little before the loss of Portuguese Asian trade, n'est-ce pas?

And p. 195:

Figures covering the years 1580-1640 show the extent to which the carreira had changed. Pepper, which had been so dominant in the early days of the Estado da Índia, now accounted for only 10% of the value of cargoes. Indigo accounted for 6% and diamond for 14%, but a staggering 62% was now cotton and silk textiles.

You really might want to read Vitorino de Maghalhães Godhino, Les finances de l'etat portugais des Indes Orientales (1517-1635) and Johnson & da Silva, O império luso-brasiliero 1500-1620 before spouting off about things which you learned in school and haven't researched since. I think that there's a much older Portuguese edition of Godhino's book if you don't read French.

And one more point is that corruption was vast even before the Castilian Captivity. The Spanish didn't corrupt the honest, hard-working Portuguese nobles; they managed that quite well all by themselves.

As for considering Portugal quite weak... Laughable. Check Afonso de Albuquerque - the Portuguese Mars - and subquent ass kicking at Battle of Diu by Francisco Almeida. More then 100 enemy ships against little more then 20 portuguese ships. Not even a combined fleet of the Ottoman Empire/Venice/Mameluks/Gujarat/Ragusa/Calicut could beat us. Not bad, for weaklings i would say.

You're beating a dead horse; nobody has challenged your assessment of Portugal's strength in the first half of the 1500s, which is the period you're referring to. My point is that Portugese power in the Indian Ocean began to decline even before the Castilian Captivity, a point you are pointedly ignoring with repeated references to Portugal's glory days.

 

[Jolt]

I do think that I said that Portugal was in relatively good shape during the 1500s in the Indian Ocean, although, again, she was really only challenged by the short-lived Ottoman/Gujarati alliances during the entire period since neither the Dutch nor the English did anything significant therein.

It also had the significant problem of extreme distances from the metropolis, as well as monsoon sailing which incredibly increased the difficulty of maintaining an overseas empire with short manpower under intermittent attack by land and sea from numerous peoples. It was difficult from the get go.

And if the Mughals had ever thought it necessary they could have evicted the Portuguese from India entirely pretty much at any time without the Portuguese being able to do much about it. But the Portuguese were extremely fortunate that they provided much that the Mughals wanted and were no threat to their empire so the Mughals had no real incentive to attack them in any serious manner.

True, however I don't see how is that "fortune" in any way. Portugal played their cards incredibly well in the region, using war and diplomacy as proper and necessary. How is that fortune? When England only had Calcutta, I doubt it would have been much more difficult to evict them than to evict the Portuguese. Portuguese had no manpower to confront large land empire, because the empire itself was sustained through maritime power.

My major point being that even if the Dutch tried to battle a seperate Spain, and Portugal, I have sincere doubts it would be able to break the Portuguese hegemony in the Indian Ocean (However, England and the Netherlands combined, might be too much of a strain on the entire Portuguese fleet which the nation had in 1580) Portugal was forced to sign in wars it did not want, which innevitably led to the delapidation of the labour done and the power gained in the past centuries.

 

[sturmvogel]

True, however I don't see how is that "fortune" in any way. Portugal played their cards incredibly well in the region, using war and diplomacy as proper and necessary. How is that fortune? When England only had Calcutta, I doubt it would have been much more difficult to evict them than to evict the Portuguese. Portuguese had no manpower to confront large land empire, because the empire itself was sustained through maritime power.

My major point being that even if the Dutch tried to battle a seperate Spain, and Portugal, I have sincere doubts it would be able to break the Portuguese hegemony in the Indian Ocean (However, England and the Netherlands combined, might be too much of a strain on the entire Portuguese fleet which the nation had in 1580) Portugal was forced to sign in wars it did not want, which innevitably led to the delapidation of the labour done and the power gained in the past centuries.

I think that Portuguese India survived more on Mughal suffrance than on any negotiating skill of its own, but that's my opinion, not a fact.

If Portugal was independent during the Dutch Revolt it likely would have suffered much less damage from the Dutch and English as neither would have wanted to add another nation to their list of enemies. The loss of the Portuguese fleet during the Armada was irrelevant to the defense of their empire at that time as neither the Dutch nor the English were capable of any significant attacks, and wouldn't be for another twenty years or so.

That said it's probable that the Dutch East India Company would have attacked some of Portugal's outposts in the East Indies and the Indian Ocean as part of their strategy to reduce competition much like they attacked the English outpost at Amboyna. But Portugal probably would have retained most of its possessions. And the Dutch certainly never would have attacked Portugal's Atlantic possessions.

But both the English and the Dutch would still have aided the Omanis since that wouldn't have been an overt attack.

 

[Jolt]

I think that Portuguese India survived more on Mughal suffrance than on any negotiating skill of its own, but that's my opinion, not a fact.

If Portugal was independent during the Dutch Revolt it likely would have suffered much less damage from the Dutch and English as neither would have wanted to add another nation to their list of enemies. The loss of the Portuguese fleet during the Armada was irrelevant to the defense of their empire at that time as neither the Dutch nor the English were capable of any significant attacks, and wouldn't be for another twenty years or so.

That said it's probable that the Dutch East India Company would have attacked some of Portugal's outposts in the East Indies and the Indian Ocean as part of their strategy to reduce competition much like they attacked the English outpost at Amboyna. But Portugal probably would have retained most of its possessions. And the Dutch certainly never would have attacked Portugal's Atlantic possessions.

But both the English and the Dutch would still have aided the Omanis since that wouldn't have been an overt attack.

We now converge in terms of opinions. Had Portugal been independent, it would have retained much of its empire. The problem with your reasoning is that the Armada was quite relevant was it was the consumation of the Iberian Union. A joint armada. Had there never been a Portuguese contribution to the armada, the Dutch would have had tremendous more difficulty settling in the Portuguese sphere of influence.

 

[sturmvogel]

We now converge in terms of opinions. Had Portugal been independent, it would have retained much of its empire. The problem with your reasoning is that the Armada was quite relevant was it was the consumation of the Iberian Union. A joint armada. Had there never been a Portuguese contribution to the armada, the Dutch would have had tremendous more difficulty settling in the Portuguese sphere of influence.

I honestly doubt that any of the Portuguese ships that participated in the Armada would have been in any position to defend Portuguese possessions in the Indian Ocean and the East Indies after those attacks began around 1605; they were simply too spread out to easily defend. But that's not necessarily true in the Atlantic.

And how long did ships last in this period? Probably less than 20 years. Certainly few naos survived more than two voyages to India, but I'm not at all sure that that is a representative sampling.