MOD: Lowland and Lotharingia

[sirbruce]

I based myself on written accounts. I thought (ccould be wrong) the city of Köln was part of the kingdom. Since I didn't want to mess around with the German duchies too much, I simply added the entire duchy. I'll look into this, and maybe fix it

Also: I re-uploaded the file. Something must have been wrong with the previous upload. If there still are problems, let me know!

Here's a map for reference: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Partage_de_l%27Empire_carolingien_au_Trait%C3%A9_de_Verdun_en_843.JPG

The biggest problem is that it really runs along the Rhine, but the provinces (and cities, like Koln) are sometimes on the river. Looking at it again, I think it's okay to inclue Kleves, but Munster should be left out. Also, I was wrong about Mainz; it looks like it was carved out for Germany after all. I may have included it in my mod for CK1 just to give Lorraine somewhere to expand.

So, consensus? Remove Munster?

Bruce

Edit: The new file looks identical to me?

 

[Darrigan]

No, nothing has changed. I meant that some people had trouble downloading, so I re-uploaded it. No changes were made (yet).

Update: The link now leads to an updated file. Münster has been removed.

 

[Darrigan]

I have re-uploaded the mod, due to a bug with coats of arms. I advise anyone who has downloaded the mod to re-download and re-install it. Simply copy the new files over the old ones.

 

[tretii_sleva]

To OP - how did you redrew the borders? Was it difficult to do?

 

[Darrigan]

Yes, I redrew the borders. It's not that hard, but it took me some time to figure out how to do it correctly. I might make a tutorial later on.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Very nice mod, thanks. Especially for me as a great fun of the Low Countries/Rhine/Burgundy history.

Made a small coat of arms pack for your mod; may be you will like some ideas and use them in your mod.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/9850xz5zlyj90ep/LL_mod.rar

 

[3inar]

How hard was it to mod the map? Seemes like youu did it quite quickly, I guess you are experienced with that from before?

 

[Herr Doctor]

Also you can add Frisian culture to West Friesland/North Holland province as it will feat well for the early era. A province for North Frisia within Schleswig duchy would be also very nice.
May be you also should consider Low Saxon culture (there is a useful Saxon names file for it in CK1).

Two small notes regarding duchy setup: you can consider adding Friesland as the creatable duchy for provinces of Friesland proper and East Frisia. Cleves then can go into Guelders de jure duchy.

 

[Darrigan]

Very nice mod, thanks. Especially for me as a great fun of the Low Countries/Rhine/Burgundy history.

Made a small coat of arms pack for your mod; may be you will like some ideas and use them in your mod.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/9850xz5zlyj90ep/LL_mod.rar

A lot of them are already quite close to the ones I use. I do like the one for Lotharingia, though! What did you base yourself on?
Also, is there a historical reason for you switching the CoAs of Frisia and Ostfriesland?

How hard was it to mod the map? Seemes like youu did it quite quickly, I guess you are experienced with that from before?

Well, I was lucky enough to have preview access, so I had the chance to dig into the files a long time ago. It's not too hard, as long a you know what you're doing. I might make a tutorial when the game is released.

Also you can add Frisian culture to West Friesland/North Holland province as it will feat well for the early era. A province for North Frisia within Schleswig duchy would be also very nice.
May be you also should consider Low Saxon culture (there is a useful Saxon names file for it in CK1).

Two small notes regarding duchy setup: you can consider adding Friesland as the creatable duchy for provinces of Friesland proper and East Frisia. Cleves then can go into Guelders de jure duchy.

Do you happen to know when the culture in North Holland approx. changed from Frisian to Dutch? That way I can give the province its correct culture at the correct time.

As for the other things: I am thinking of redrawing the HRE a little. I won't make a thread about it, or release it until the game come out, though. The Lower Saxon and ther Frisian province will have to wait a while.

Also, is Lower Saxon actually considered a different language/culture? I tought it's more of a German/Dutch dialect... Please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[the_legion]

Do you happen to know when the culture in North Holland approx. changed from Frisian to Dutch?

The frisian people are an acknowledged minority even today, so I don't think it did change at all. It's even hard to define a dutch
culture at all for that time. From the language viewpoint I'd say arround 1500. From the culture-viewpoint I'd say it's about 1100.
Given the population mix and the uncertain data it's too hard to tell (because unlike Vicky2 you can only make it 100% frisian or 100% dutch)...

Also, is Lower Saxon actually considered a different language/culture? I tought it's more of a German/Dutch dialect... Please correct me if I'm wrong

Lower Saxony is the modern name for the region of historical Saxony because Saxony is not at the same place where Saxony was back then. I highly doubt that it can be considered a culture on it's own.

 

[Hroppa]

I've poked around a bit on the Saxon question. As best as I can make out, the Saxons in the region were a very distinct culture before Charlemagne. Then he converted them to Christianity at the point of a sword, in the course of which many died. This very definitely did not eradicate the culture, as Saxon law is still mentioned, but it did weaken it.

Saxons spoke Low German/Saxon, which seems to be as distinct as Dutch is from High German in this period (in fact, they were very similar).

So... on balance, I think that the Saxons deserve their own culture along the North coast of Germany and maybe southern part of Denmark, with this as the eastern border. Dates wise, I'd recommend a gradual conversion to German sweeping up from the south, so that by the late 12th century only the area around Lubeck is Saxon.

Edit: I think this'll also help game balance with HRE, which seems a little too easy to control with German being such a dominant culture.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Was there already a Dutch culture back then?

Rhineland / Benelux countries were all one big dialect continuum. On the Germanic side the entire region spoke dialects that varied from village to village, and had no really discernable borders. You can still see this when you listen to the way dialects change as you go from, say, Cologne to Maastricht or Hasselt, it's all a blend. The "Dutch" culture really only split off with the economic takeoff of the Holland region, and the way they developed an identity of their own built around their peculiar social and economic structure. Maritime oriented, urbanized, anti-aristocratic and so on.

The more outlying regions of the netherlands (Brabant, Limburg, Gelderland) only joined that culture in the early modern ages, when religion became the hot button issue. Before that (i.e. throughout the CK2 timeframe) regions such as Limburg, Gelderland and Brabant were culturally not very different from, say, Cleves, Jülich, Emsland or other regions that are today part of the German lower Rhineland. People worked, married, travelled and moved freely around those regions and did not experience any barriers.

The regions that stand out in the CK timeframe were Holland and Zeeland on one hand due to the maritime orientation of life in that region, and on the other hand the Frisian regions in the north (all the coastal regions east of the IJsselmeer up to the Elbe) which had their own identities and language.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

I've poked around a bit on the Saxon question. As best as I can make out, the Saxons in the region were a very distinct culture before Charlemagne. Then he converted them to Christianity at the point of a sword, in the course of which many died. This very definitely did not eradicate the culture, as Saxon law is still mentioned, but it did weaken it.

Saxons spoke Low German/Saxon, which seems to be as distinct as Dutch is from High German in this period (in fact, they were very similar).

So... on balance, I think that the Saxons deserve their own culture along the North coast of Germany and maybe southern part of Denmark, with this as the eastern border. Dates wise, I'd recommend a gradual conversion to German sweeping up from the south, so that by the late 12th century only the area around Lubeck is Saxon.

Saxons stopped being a distinct people when they adopted Christianity, before the start of the game.

Their conquest was bloody as hell, but within 1-2 generations they became loyal subjects to the Frankish emperors. The Saxon identity lingered in areas of regional law and as an aristocratic identity. But 1066 is too late for a switch to generic German culture - the common folk didn't follow any ideas of separatism or regional independence, and had no qualms at all about mixing with other Germanic speaking groups f.ex. in the settlement drives of the 12th and later centuries.

So while your idea makes sense for a Carolingian mod, it doesn't for the 1066 scenario IMHO. Especially because Lübeck and thereabouts never identified as a "Saxon" place (despite being ruled and shaped by Saxon rulers). Saxony mostly stopped at the Elbe, beyond the Slavic settlement frontier (which was west of the Elbe in many places) people didn't really become "Saxon", unless you mean by that a generic northern German identity shared by everyone north of Hesse and the Rhineland. I wouldn't know what the difference between a medieval Saxon and, say, a Hessian should be, in game or RL terms, beyond vague dialect groups.

 

[Herr Doctor]

A lot of them are already quite close to the ones I use.

Yeah, just wanted them to look kind of more "medieval".

I do like the one for Lotharingia, though! What did you base yourself on?

This is traditional motif of the Lotharingian heraldry (largely used in coins for example). The colour scheme is quite traditional for the region either. Check here:
http://home.eckerd.edu/~oberhot/temple.htm

Also, is there a historical reason for you switching the CoAs of Frisia and Ostfriesland?

As far as I know the two golden lions is the coa of Friesland both closely related to West-Friesland and Guelders heraldic traditions. Do not know anything about their relation to East Frisia so.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wapen_van_Fryslân

Do you happen to know when the culture in North Holland approx. changed from Frisian to Dutch? That way I can give the province its correct culture at the correct time.

I believe this happened after the counts of Holland crushed the last opposition to their rule in the area at the end of the 13th century. So, it should be somewhere between 14th-15th centuries.

Also, is Lower Saxon actually considered a different language/culture? I tought it's more of a German/Dutch dialect... Please correct me if I'm wrong

Well considering Saxon in Britain is own culture.
From modern point of view I think this is indeed a dialect.

 

[Hroppa]

Leviathan: You have a fair point, but I think it might still make sense for a Low German culture to be separate from a High German one. The representation of German as a single culture is a bit of a problem, albeit a hard one to solve. In reality it was a collection of many similar but distinct ones. There isn't really an appropriate designation for this; I think a compromise would be making Low German separate.

Edit: While you're right that Lubeck wasn't Saxon, it was the center of spreading Low German via the baltic sea trade, according to Wikipedia. Low German does seem to be a better designation than Saxon for this period.

 

[Darrigan]

I like the idea fof Low German. I should do some more research on it. Anyone knows a good map about the matter?

 

[Herr Doctor]

I like the idea fof Low German. I should do some more research on it. Anyone knows a good map about the matter?

This is quite good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AlthochdeutscheSprachräume962_Box.jpg

 

[rednif tap]

Hello, Darrigan, thanks for the fine mod! I have enjoyed my game trying to create the kingdom of Lotharingia - though I didn't make it

But there's one concern that I believe to be quite important. Italy and Burgundy should not be in the de jure HRE, because it's a kind of a gamebreaker. Vassals seem to be more reluctant to fight for independence if they are within a de jure borders - I have played 2 full demo games with your mod, and NOBODY ever tried to break free from HRE. That way emperor has way too much resources (and he's much less preoccupied with internal strife) and is able to conquer every pagan to the north in 100 years or so. And another thing - historical HRE should never include Italians eligible to become (and voting for) the emperor.

That's why I believe it would be better to create another de jure empire - (Middle) Francia. After all, HRE was created after Germans had usurped the imperial title from the descendants of Lothar. So, there should be a way to restore the Middle Kingdom
Please, take a look here on how I made it. The title requires the ruler to be the king of either Burgundy, Italy or Lotaringia, control Rome (directly or through vassals) and directly control the county of Julich (where the city of Aachen is situated).

Furthermore, I have thought of a nice event chain following the creation of Francia. There can be only one western roman empire, and the claims of Francia are just more solid (city of Aachen and Rome). So, ultimately, the ruler of HRE should either wage war on the "usurper", or abandon his imperial ambition. Regardless of who wins the war, HRE will be disbanded, and kingdom of Germany will be created instead. The old emperor should get the king title and the condition of creating HRE should be set to "Francia not exists".

I have browsed through event files and think that should be possible to implement. If you are interested, I can try to make the script for you to include in the mod. Cheers!

 

[Darrigan]

Hello, Darrigan, thanks for the fine mod! I have enjoyed my game trying to create the kingdom of Lotharingia - though I didn't make it

But there's one concern that I believe to be quite important. Italy and Burgundy should not be in the de jure HRE, because it's a kind of a gamebreaker. Vassals seem to be more reluctant to fight for independence if they are within a de jure borders - I have played 2 full demo games with your mod, and NOBODY ever tried to break free from HRE. That way emperor has way too much resources (and he's much less preoccupied with internal strife) and is able to conquer every pagan to the north in 100 years or so. And another thing - historical HRE should never include Italians eligible to become (and voting for) the emperor.

That's why I believe it would be better to create another de jure empire - (Middle) Francia. After all, HRE was created after Germans had usurped the imperial title from the descendants of Lothar. So, there should be a way to restore the Middle Kingdom
Please, take a look here on how I made it. The title requires the ruler to be the king of either Burgundy, Italy or Lotaringia, control Rome (directly or through vassals) and directly control the county of Julich (where the city of Aachen is situated).

Furthermore, I have thought of a nice event chain following the creation of Francia. There can be only one western roman empire, and the claims of Francia are just more solid (city of Aachen and Rome). So, ultimately, the ruler of HRE should either wage war on the "usurper", or abandon his imperial ambition. Regardless of who wins the war, HRE will be disbanded, and kingdom of Germany will be created instead. The old emperor should get the king title and the condition of creating HRE should be set to "Francia not exists".

I have browsed through event files and think that should be possible to implement. If you are interested, I can try to make the script for you to include in the mod. Cheers!

Hello!

I kind of disagree with your argument that it makes the HRE stronger. In all games I have played (vanilla included), the HRE always does an early invasion of the pagans.
Also, fear of the liege is based on "power" (Hover your mouse over the probable answer before sending a diplomatic request; it'll sometimes show "power".). Power, at it's turn, is based on the character's demesne and de facto vassals.

But, I do like your argument about the Italians not having the right to vote. This is something I have not yet thought about. I will consider pulling the Italians out again.
I also like the idea of creating the Middle Kingdom and reclaiming the Imperial Title for the HRE. Though, there should indeed by a mechanic to make sure only one (western) empire exists.
Therefore I also like your idea of "forcing" the HRE to go to war through events, but unfortunatly I have no idea how to make such thing. I would greatly appreciate your help

 

[Darrigan]

I have updated the mod. There now is an extra landed_titles file which does not have Burgundy and Italy in the de jure HRE. The default file still has them in. You can freely choose what file to use.

Middle kingdom and new flags will be added later.