[MOD] SWMH 2.0 Map, de jure and general history mod. For a superior CK2 experience

[ZmajOgnjeniVuk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratimir_(Pannonian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_(title)

You might be right though, might fit better with a duke title(only thats a Knez(which in Serbia is a count):wacko(was doing reserach for Serbian, Bosnian and Bulgarian titles at the same time so I might have gotten confused with Croatia)

Croatian versions of those pages don't mention Ratimir as ban, but as knez. So does his namepage on English wiki.

I can understand the confusion, since the a) various titles were used which we need to abstract into 2 tiers b) those titles didn't have a "fixed value" c) they could mean one thing at one place and another in a different one.

IMHO the lowest common denominator is župan, which could account for the baron-level title for both Croats and Serbs (though there were great župans in Serbia which equaled duke/prince titles).

Next up the list is knez title. It designated a ruler over a nation (knez Srba/dux Serborum or knez Hrvata/dux Croatorum) at first, but when Croats and Serbs established their kingdoms, knez title was lowered in the perceived realm hierarchy - most often a ruler of an area that would account for a single province on the game map, and with the title translating into "comes" - count in Latin (it's been used in Bosnia in this sense too). After the dissolution Empire of Serbia, knez title once again rose up the ladder, though only for a short period of time (1/4 of a century), to be replaced by despot.

As for ban, I stand by the argument that it's should be a duke level title in-game, represented in those areas with significant Hungarian influence - Croatia, Bosnia, north-western Serbia. First know ban of Bosnia (Borić) was installed as an Hungarian vassal. There was also a brief period of banate of Zahumlje/Zachlumia, when the future Andrew II of Hungary established some sort of control over this area. Same goes for north-eastern Serbia, there was a short-lived banate of Braničevo (accounts for a part of Vidin province on the game map) when the area was under Hungarian control.

All that said, I'm still unsure as to what could be used for "duke" in Serbia, but veliki (great) knez seems like a best fit. There were, if not at the same time a great knez of Hum, Duklja, and the two 14th century knezs of Rascia were sometimes referred to as "great knez".

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

Please do

* That's how it might look like in CK2 -> http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5682/polandck2.jpg

* Comparing similar (but little different) provinces borders on normal map -> http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/1065/poland2.png
(I'm not good in copying, but it even wasn't my intention to - only to compare normal and CK2 map)

* Silesia -> http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3429/silesia.jpg

* Hungary - corrections of outer borders - and Bohemia - how it might be moved -> http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4884/hungarybohemia.jpg

I hope it helps

 

[Aasmul]

* That's how it might look like in CK2 -> http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5682/polandck2.jpg

* Comparing similar (but little different) provinces borders on normal map -> http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/1065/poland2.png
(I'm not good in copying, but it even wasn't my intention to - only to compare normal and CK2 map)

* Silesia -> http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3429/silesia.jpg

* Hungary - corrections of outer borders - and Bohemia - how it might be moved -> http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4884/hungarybohemia.jpg

I hope it helps

Me happy

One little note, that Kujawy you have made does it border Leckya? its a bit hard to see but it seems like Plock is put in between them?

Second little note, should Csanad not go all the way down to the river?

 

[Aasmul]

Croatian versions of those pages don't mention Ratimir as ban, but as knez. So does his namepage on English wiki.

I can understand the confusion, since the a) various titles were used which we need to abstract into 2 tiers b) those titles didn't have a "fixed value" c) they could mean one thing at one place and another in a different one.

IMHO the lowest common denominator is župan, which could account for the baron-level title for both Croats and Serbs (though there were great župans in Serbia which equaled duke/prince titles).

Next up the list is knez title. It designated a ruler over a nation (knez Srba/dux Serborum or knez Hrvata/dux Croatorum) at first, but when Croats and Serbs established their kingdoms, knez title was lowered in the perceived realm hierarchy - most often a ruler of an area that would account for a single province on the game map, and with the title translating into "comes" - count in Latin (it's been used in Bosnia in this sense too). After the dissolution Empire of Serbia, knez title once again rose up the ladder, though only for a short period of time (1/4 of a century), to be replaced by despot.

As for ban, I stand by the argument that it's should be a duke level title in-game, represented in those areas with significant Hungarian influence - Croatia, Bosnia, north-western Serbia. First know ban of Bosnia (Borić) was installed as an Hungarian vassal. There was also a brief period of banate of Zahumlje/Zachlumia, when the future Andrew II of Hungary established some sort of control over this area. Same goes for north-eastern Serbia, there was a short-lived banate of Braničevo (accounts for a part of Vidin province on the game map) when the area was under Hungarian control.

All that said, I'm still unsure as to what could be used for "duke" in Serbia, but veliki (great) knez seems like a best fit. There were, if not at the same time a great knez of Hum, Duklja, and the two 14th century knezs of Rascia were sometimes referred to as "great knez".

the funny thing is, that Bulgaria is even more complicated

 

[Carewolf2]

Awesome stuff, but where does the name Vestervik come from? It looks like it is supposed to be North Jutlandic Island, which was called Vendel at the time (a part of is still named after one of syssels there Vendsyssel, but syssels were not introduced until the middle ages).

Also please make the province of Lolland separate of Sjælland. I am sure a lot of players would love to be the count of Lolland Also it is larger than most of the islands with separate counties and would make the Duchy of Sjælland a three country duchy.

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

One little note, that Kujawy you have made does it border Leckya? its a bit hard to see but it seems like Plock is put in between them?

Should border, but there was little problem with drawing it (paint-writing maps is not the best method ) - so I left this like that. I hope you will do something with that on a game map, better than I - here Check the normal map, there's much better with Mazovia and Kujawy.

Second little note, should Csanad not go all the way down to the river?

Actually, you are right. But I thought that the province goes to much south. So such changes might need to correct the river... Maybe drop this change, let it stay like that.

 

[Alextrasia]

by the way nice work with this mod! its so much more fun to play with it in my opinion ;D ceep working on it! wouldnt want to play without it anymore xDD
another thing many of my games i ve played are instable... sometimes ckII just crushes or the saves are broken and cant be reloaded. Has anyone else the same probs?

 

[Aasmul]

Awesome stuff, but where does the name Vestervik come from? It looks like it is supposed to be North Jutlandic Island, which was called Vendel at the time (a part of is still named after one of syssels there Vendsyssel, but syssels were not introduced until the middle ages).

Also please make the province of Lolland separate of Sjælland. I am sure a lot of players would love to be the count of Lolland Also it is larger than most of the islands with separate counties and would make the Duchy of Sjælland a three country duchy.

One province of Lolland coming up!(why didn't I think of that?:unsure

Vestervik(Vestervig, just slightly norseified): the way I have build the new Danish provinces is mainly by the syssel system(that of course mean combining a few), the problem with that province is that there were 4 equally small and relativly insignificant Syssels, hence I took the name from one of the two Discoses (the alternative one is Vigborg)

Discoses were made out, of Syssler, that in turn was, made out of Herreder. However Syssler and Herreder in Jutland predates the church (and thus functioned also as a secular administrative/judicial system), while in the rest of Denmark there were only Herreder, before the church decided to make its own Syssler in those regions.(almost as straightforward as titles in the Balkans)

 

[Aasmul]

Should border, but there was little problem with drawing it (paint-writing maps is not the best method ) - so I left this like that. I hope you will do something with that on a game map, better than I - here Check the normal map, there's much better with Mazovia and Kujawy.


Actually, you are right. But I thought that the province goes to much south. So such changes might need to correct the river... Maybe drop this change, let it stay like that.

Or change the rivers!, hadn't Arko and one of his friends made an alternative river and topography map to vanilla?

Btw I use paint to make the Provinces(and then GIMP or Photosop afterwards, to get the correct colours and positions)

 

[Aasmul]

by the way nice work with this mod! its so much more fun to play with it in my opinion ;D ceep working on it! wouldnt want to play without it anymore xDD
another thing many of my games i ve played are instable... sometimes ckII just crushes or the saves are broken and cant be reloaded. Has anyone else the same probs?

Glad you like it

Do you use saves from old versions of the mod?(that could explain it, if I have changed major things in between versions)
I haven't experienced any real change to vanilla in my own playthroughs:unsure:. When does those issues happen?(startup, exit or during gameplay?)

 

[Arko]

Or change the rivers!, hadn't Arko and one of his friends made an alternative river and topography map to vanilla?

Btw I use paint to make the Provinces(and then GIMP or Photosop afterwards, to get the correct colours and positions)

Rivers are easy to modify but including the river map only for one change isn't really necesary.
Rivers are often borders (and a lot of rivers are wrong), I think correcting rivers is preliminar to the drawing of provinces, but that only my opinion. That's why we have done this river mini mod named Mercator.

 

[Aasmul]

Rivers are easy to modify but including the river map only for one change isn't really necesary.
Rivers are often borders (and a lot of rivers are wrong), I think correcting rivers is preliminar to the drawing of provinces, but that only my opinion. That's why we have done this river mini mod named Mercator.

May I borrow it?(with credits of course)

edit- Hahaha just tried the mod with your rivermap(lets just say I have some province corrcting to do)

 

[Alextrasia]

na it is like this: I am a rly save guy so i have for each new game 3 savespots. But with your mod some of those saves are broken, its possible to load them sometimes but after pressing the play button the game crushes. Also sometimes just during a playsession the game crushes without warning but this only seems to apear after 50-60 years of playing

dunno maybe its just a problem with the german language i use i will try now a game with english language maybe then it will work

 

[Aasmul]

na it is like this: I am a rly save guy so i have for each new game 3 savespots. But with your mod some of those saves are broken, its possible to load them sometimes but after pressing the play button the game crushes. Also sometimes just during a playsession the game crushes without warning but this only seems to apear after 50-60 years of playing

dunno maybe its just a problem with the german language i use i will try now a game with english language maybe then it will work

Thats strange, there should not be any german language left out(I might have put english inside, but there should at least be something in the german file column...)

 

[Arko]

May I borrow it?(with credits of course)

edit- Hahaha just tried the mod with your rivermap(lets just say I have some province corrcting to do)

It is exactly the aim of this mod. Feel free to use it. LINK

 

[Alextrasia]

@ Aasmul

dont mind me now its stabel xD maybe i ve downloaded an older ver. which wasnt so compatible with 1.5d

omfg right now your mod is running and now my game starts updaiting again oh noes-.-

 

[Aasmul]

@ Aasmul

dont mind me now its stabel xD maybe i ve downloaded an older ver. which wasnt so compatible with 1.5d

omfg right now your mod is running and now my game starts updaiting again oh noes-.-

A new patch!! Oh the joys of modding PI games

 

[Carewolf2]

Vestervik(Vestervig, just slightly norseified): the way I have build the new Danish provinces is mainly by the syssel system(that of course mean combining a few), the problem with that province is that there were 4 equally small and relativly insignificant Syssels, hence I took the name from one of the two Discoses (the alternative one is Vigborg)

Norsified, you mean changed to modern norwegian spelling?
My point was that the most common names for the area is Thy and Vendsyssel, both old names from the days of syssels, but before the syssels, the entire area was called Vendel (or Wendel in English), it was just split into multiple syssels and only one of them could use the old name. Vestervig is just a city name in Thy, and where main church of area was located.

Btw, about lolland. I think the county should reflect the old Lolland-Falster county, but to be include the most significant areas it probably needs to include the southern tip of Sjælland as well, and have the capital castle in Vordingborg. A church could be located in Maribo, the current Maribo domkirke is from 1416, but is quite famous, and there was monastery there before the big church. I guess Lolland probably shouldn't have a city to avoid increasing the income of Denmark too much.

I am not normally an expert on this, but I was considering improving the map of Denmark myself, so I researched some of these things several weeks ago

 

[Aasmul]

Norsified, you mean changed to modern norwegian spelling?
My point was that the most common names for the area is Thy and Vendsyssel, both old names from the days of syssels, but before the syssels, the entire area was called Vendel (or Wendel in English), it was just split into multiple syssels and only one of them could use the old name. Vestervig is just a city name in Thy, and where main church of area was located.

Btw, about lolland. I think the county should reflect the old Lolland-Falster county, but to be include the most significant areas it probably needs to include the southern tip of Sjælland as well, and have the capital castle in Vordingborg. A church could be located in Maribo, the current Maribo domkirke is from 1416, but is quite famous, and there was monastery there before the big church. I guess Lolland probably shouldn't have a city to avoid increasing the income of Denmark too much.

I am not normally an expert on this, but I was considering improving the map of Denmark myself, so I researched some of these things several weeks ago

Norseified: nope(Im a Sjælender myself, so I have no intention on putting Nynorsk in the game) should be closer to the eastnorse spelling(or how it would have been, if it was not in runes..)(my skills in that field is not particular great so please say if you spot a mistake(all the Norwegian province and barrony names was made by a Norwegian guy using the Heimskringla, so they should all be in order)

Vestervig: I know its just a small village today(that has happend to a lot of the main cities of the time) as I said the other alternative would have been Vigborg(thysyssel and vendsyssel is just to small and insignificant to justify using them)

Wendel: do you have a link with some info on that?(from what I remember Vendel is in Sweden, and that is also what I get when searching on it...), but if you are correct, it might be a better name

Lolland-Falster: would using the old(relativly speaking, it was from 1714) county of Knuthenborg(the barrony is mentioned in 1372 as Aarsmarke) as a startingpoint not suit as well? Seems like it would confine the province to Lolland-Falster. I would prefer if Sjælland could remain as a 6 barrony county(I think it ought to be the most powerfull province in Scandinavia, considering the % of the total population living there in the CK2 period), and then giveing Lolland-Falster two-three baronies.

 

[Aasmul]

Should border, but there was little problem with drawing it (paint-writing maps is not the best method ) - so I left this like that. I hope you will do something with that on a game map, better than I - here Check the normal map, there's much better with Mazovia and Kujawy.


Actually, you are right. But I thought that the province goes to much south. So such changes might need to correct the river... Maybe drop this change, let it stay like that.

Working on the polish layout, at the moment, but it seems you have drawn two additional provinces and Im a bit unsure of what they are?(the one above Poznan and the one above Lubusz)