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Feb 12, 2010
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(You may have seen the previous thread. That was a discussion prior to Victoria 3's release. This is the announcement that the mod is starting to happen. It's not out yet. We love you and we will tell you when it's out, don't worry.)

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It's 1972. Since the guns fell silent in 1918, there have been no major power wars. At times it looked like the world was going to fall apart - during the Great Depression of the early 1930s an ultranationalist party came very close to taking power in Germany, and there was a moment when Britain and France had to defy the Americans and Soviets to keep their empires alive - but it looks like the "war to end all wars" really did end the wars. We've entered the long-awaited era of universal peace. Oh, sure, all of Africa is still under the boot of the European empires, the USSR struggles internally, Italy is grappling with post-Mussolini fascism, and China is divided between conquerers; but that doesn't count. The world is at peace. Please ignore the blood seeping out from under the carpet.

Or maybe it's just complacency. Maybe, if the world were to suffer any one of a dozen upsets - a sudden rise in the price of oil, a spark that unites the anticolonial movements, an awareness of the first breezes of the oncoming storm of climate change - the decrepit, corrupt power systems would be unable to respond. Maybe the balance of power enforced by nuclear weapons isn't a reliable guarantor of the end of all conflicts. Maybe the future will see floodwaters overrunning suburban sprawl, farmland abandoned to drought, and long columns of refugees trying to find a gap through the barbed wire. Maybe you'll be smart enough and lucky enough to find a path through the worst of the trouble.

We would like to present to you an experience of one hundred years, divided into three series. (All three will come out at once, we're naming them series to be poetic.)




Our Great Powers:
  • The United States of America has become (by some measures) the largest economy in the world, but has shown little interest in throwing their weight around militarily. Traditionally they've been the standard-bearer of anticolonial movements and of the spread of democracy throughout the world, a movement which has brought them into sharp conflict with the decaying empires of Europe. Within the last decade the United States has been distracted internally by the rise of the Civil Rights movement and other Left causes. Many write this off as simple Bolshevik provocation, but others believe that the USA must at last meet the legacy of the failures of Reconstruction and the New Deal if they don't want to simply face the same conflict in every generation. Meanwhile, right-wing economic ideas coming out of the University of Chicago are beginning to take root, arguing for a financialised world, a hands-off government and no social safety net.
  • The USA's sometimes-partner across the seas, the German Republic, has been facing their own issues. The Weimar constitution is fragile, and every time the market goes down the extremist parties swell with new voters. Half of the country are still obsessed with reclaiming the "lost territories" from Poland, while the other half wonder whether it's better to be the "bedside doctor of capitalism" or its gravedigger. Germany is a wealthy country with a high standard of living, but the high wages associated with this means that some factory owners have wondered about moving their operations overseas. Others note that Germany, once again, has no empire. German tourists may line the beaches of every tropical resort, but some wonder: perhaps if Germany was a friend to the rising nationalist movements within the colonised world, they might find their friendship repaid with more than cheap holidays?
  • Possibly due to their mastery of the inevitable forces that shape history, The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics has managed to go from dynamic rising star to a moribund, inefficient, bureaucratic mess over a mere 53 years. Their industrial output is vast, their natural resources almost infinite, and they won the race to the Moon, but how much of that matters when the queues to get a new car or a plumber are years long? One shouldn't write the Soviets off, however: they've been dabbling in anticolonial activity themselves, including arming leftist rebel groups across the world (to the great annoyance of the Europeans.) It's possible that a reformer will rise from the party machine and unite the USSR - or it's possible that they'll simply sink further into inefficiency and corruption until at last something happens. Maybe something good. Maybe not.
  • Old Europe, formally referred to as the West European Union, began as a union between France and the UK to preserve their empires in the face of the rising power of the USA and USSR. Nowadays it's a four nation union, with the inclusion of Belgium and the Netherlands (with Portugal an uneasy possible-fifth) but regardless of promises of equality the important decisions are made in London and Paris. When London and Paris disagree, however - which is often - Old Europe has difficulty moving forward. While these are all nominally democratic countries, each of them rules over more people in their colonial empire than they have at home, and these colonial subjects are getting more educated and less obedient by the day. At home, new transgressive subcultures are springing up to shock the establishment, and importing ideas from abroad. To survive, the Europeans need to take their eyes off the past and decide what a future might be, otherwise the next shock to hit them might be the last, and the Red Banner might be flying at home as well as overseas.
  • Japan is the smallest of the great powers. Their government lurches from one military-industrial conspiracy to the next, and the country's wealth is sapped by a ruinously expensive military and an equally expensive occupation of parts of China. Their space race and nuclear programme both languish as nobody can agree which one to cancel in order to properly fund the other. However, they're considered a great power mostly due to their sheer determination to be one, which means regularly throwing their weight around as if they were a lot bigger than they are. Anticolonial movements in East Asia have a friend in Tokyo, a fact which leads to regular crises with European powers, and occasionally one clique or another will suggest extending this friendship to India, Africa and South America. Japan may not be able to win a war against the Americans or Europeans as things stand - but if those countries become distracted internally and unable to project their full force, then the hour of the Rising Sun may come.
  • China remains mostly unconquered by Japan, but how much does that matter when the government is corrupt and half the country teems with warlords? The people are poor and the countryside is alive with communist agitators, but there's enough potential here to become the workshop of the world - or its master. Perhaps under a red star, perhaps under a white sun, perhaps under some other flag altogether, the world will see China return to its stage.


Featuring:
  • Trying to use as little scripting as possible, and instead unlock the potential of the rhythms of the base game!
  • A lot of weird stuff with Production Methods!
  • A lot of very weird stuff with Decentralised Nations!
  • Harsh, sometimes no-clear-win struggles between Interest Groups!
  • Country-specific and government-type-specific flavour events!
  • Really, really bad graphic design!
  • A whole new tech tree (naturally)!
  • Laws and institutions!
  • South American content!
  • Almost certainly lots of game breaking bugs!
  • As much more as we can plausibly add without making it impossible to ever release!
  • Our promise to you: we will never implement automated capitalists or manually controlled armies! (Unless vanilla does, in which case maybe.)

Our discord is https://discord.gg/v4gCjXhPfv. If you commented on the last thread, or if this is the first you've heard of it, come say hi. You can even help if you like.

We'll post more stuff below as and when we have stuff to show. Obviously this will take time.
 

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I definitely remembered those. You were kind enough to give good ideas and they've now become our good ideas.
Wonderful! Now I’ve joined your discord to give more because between those moments, I’ve come up with more wonderful ideas for the region, so I hope you’ll enjoy them
 
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Will the climate&pollution system be added to the game(that was talked about in the discussion thread)?
 
Will the climate&pollution system be added to the game(that was talked about in the discussion thread)?

Yes. Buildings create emissions. The total amount of emissions in the world affect how much climate change will happen. When climate change happens, its effects will be a state at a time: one place floods, one place desertifies. (It's not fair, of course: Soviet coal burns and Honduras floods.)

The amount of emissions is determined by the production method, which in turn depends on technology and laws. Expect your industrialists to fiercely resist calls to switch to more ecologically friendly manufacturing processes.
 
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Yes. A state at a time, a modifier at a time, it's going to creep up on you.
Including global effects/global spread?

I should've maybe asked that directly as I am basically spam-asking the thread now.
 
Do you have any more specific lore set on Soviet Union?
I would have some suggestions if not, I also have a bit of modding experience from other PDX games, but idk honestly if I would be able to help.

EDIT: Oh, and I also could make some suggestions on Poland.
 
Do you have any more specific lore set on Soviet Union?
I would have some suggestions if not, I also have a bit of modding experience from other PDX games, but idk honestly if I would be able to help.

EDIT: Oh, and I also could make some suggestions on Poland.
A few ideas were thrown around in the old thread for the USSR, but nothing concrete. We'd love to have your input!
 
Do you have any more specific lore set on Soviet Union?
I would have some suggestions if not, I also have a bit of modding experience from other PDX games, but idk honestly if I would be able to help.

EDIT: Oh, and I also could make some suggestions on Poland.

Yeah, welcome aboard!

Re the USSR, let me go and get what I wrote on the old thread:

The Soviet Union
Leonid Brezhnev was in charge of the USSR in 1972, having replaced Nikita Krushchev eight years before. In 1975 he suffered the first heart attack of several, possibly due to years of substance abuse, and his health declined further until his death in 1982. During the Brezhnev era things looked pretty good for the USSR as long as you didn't look closely: decades of booming industry, enviable growth, political stability, and a foreign policy that brought prestige to the country. Where capitalist countries had unemployment, the USSR was consistently struggling with a labour shortage.

Except... that booming industry was still based around churning out large amounts of heavy industrial goods, rather than the consumer goods which a "mature socialism" was supposed to transition to. The agriculture sector was increasingly inefficient, relying on scale rather than machinery. The labour shortage was due to extremely inefficient work practises and the inability to train workers to do high-skilled jobs. The growth was still there, but was slipping slowly, every year a fraction of a percent, until it would lag behind the capitalists.

As Brezhnev's health declined and he became more of a figurehead, the struggle around him was one that Victoria players would understand very well. The bureaucracy interest group had become too powerful, and ran the country more based on their own quotas and petty power struggles than on any sort of reality. Like a lot of big systemic disasters (and like a lot of what happened in the USA) the rot was extensive enough that many people's only economic education was in theories created as part of this takeover, and as a result they struggle to understand the problem well enough to fix it.

To put real history into Victoria 3 terms, a coalition of military and workers interest groups under Yuri Andropov (a Russian) struggled with the bureaucratic and academic hardliners under Mikhail Suslov. Eventually, Mikhail Gorbachev succeeded in forcing the bureaucracy partially out of power, then tried to transition to democratic socialism. This could have worked but didn't, and its failure (combined with loss of prestige due to the Chernobyl disaster and the collapse of Soviet puppet regimes) led to a failed coup by the military interest group and the collapse of the state.

The first third of USSR gameplay should offer the player a chance to see this process occur in fine detail. They might fight against the bureaucrats in various ways, or they might go along with them and hope to channel their energy into more productive ends. (If the player has ML politics they might even see the historic outcome as desirable - and if you have ML politics then I hope you enjoy the mod even if you think of me as a liberal.) The player could try to manipulate their interest groups to ensure that power goes back to a more balanced sate, or they may try to force a rupture in one direction or another.

The second third is less predictable. The Soviet command economy was wasteful, blind to ecological damage and pathologically secretive, and this would have been a very bad mindset to take into the age of crises - not to mention the gulag system and the secret police which made any sort of reform difficult. Pandemics and climate change will affect people regardless of what colour flag flies over their heads, and if the USSR breaks up then Russia has to deal with the same problems than eventually brought down the Soviets.

The survival of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics should be possible, if the player is smart, but nothing is certain - and if the Soviet Union falls, perhaps in the long run life can still be better.

I wrote this when I was envisioning a "bureaucracy" IG. Maybe we'll implement that. It would certainly be appropriate for the USSR. Maybe the Industrialists can be repurposed for that.

Re Poland:
I ran the basics past a Polish friend and she said that Poland in this setup would probably be a nationalistic dictatorship, using the threat of "we're trapped between Germany and the USSR" to make the Polish people accept being under the dictator's boot. They'd probably be a European ally, partly out of the old links between France and Poland, and partly because in Europe your natural ally is your neighbour's neighbour.

That said, people don't like being under dictatorships, and Poles have a long history of resisting dictators, so I think it may be a balancing act to stay in power.
 
A few ideas were thrown around in the old thread for the USSR, but nothing concrete. We'd love to have your input!
Yeah, welcome aboard!

Re the USSR, let me go and get what I wrote on the old thread:



I wrote this when I was envisioning a "bureaucracy" IG. Maybe we'll implement that. It would certainly be appropriate for the USSR. Maybe the Industrialists can be repurposed for that.

Re Poland:
I ran the basics past a Polish friend and she said that Poland in this setup would probably be a nationalistic dictatorship, using the threat of "we're trapped between Germany and the USSR" to make the Polish people accept being under the dictator's boot. They'd probably be a European ally, partly out of the old links between France and Poland, and partly because in Europe your natural ally is your neighbour's neighbour.

That said, people don't like being under dictatorships, and Poles have a long history of resisting dictators, so I think it may be a balancing act to stay in power.
Thanks for welcoming my suggestions.
The old synopsis is quite interesting but if I could, I would suggest something more different from OTL:

Sooo, I thought that it could be interesting to make Zinoviev and Kamenev win the struggle with Stalin, their Soviet Union would still be quite oligrachic but there would be far more intraparty democracy, and without Stalin's purges there would also be far more internal factions, so you could differentiate it from USSR alt-history tropes with Trotsky (well Trotsky is out of the question for the mod premise 'cos he would probably seek war) and Bukhrin, yet you could include neo-trotskyists (more workers focused?), and neo-bukharinists (market proponents?) as possible parties/interest groups (or their flavorisation), however you decide to do it.
It could also make the basic synopsis of the USSR in the original post (in this thread), possibly still true; the rappid, development of industry would still be there but not as reckless as in the otl (resulting in fewer deaths), for example the agriculture could resamble more moderate approach that Polish communists took in otl, that is they backed off from collectivisation instead focusing on mandatory agricultural quotas from private farmers, while also promoting shared use of equipment by farming communities, (they still held onto some state owned farming enterprises tho); and although economy would likely still stagnate the whole political system would not be as disfunctional leaving more possibility to change (and not necessarily too fast too late as Gorbachev did), on the other hand it would be fun to see all the Communist Party Factions go to eachother throats when things go dire due to economic stagnation, yet they would still be technicaly the same party.

Well I am pretty tired right now so it is hard to write my thoughts without external input but maybe I could go with some more detail if we were to brainstorm it.

EDIT:
So I have been thinking and the IG's could be like this:
- Militants (Neo-Trotskyists?) - supported by low ranking workers; decentralised-planning, agressive international policies, neutral on political system(?)
- Market Reformers (Neo-Bukharinists?) - supported by the middle class like clerks and also by mid ranking bureaucrats; maket oriented, want to liberalise USSR
- Bureaucrats - supported by low and mid ranking bureaucrats; want moderate liberalisation of political life want to maintain state buraucracy
- "Hardliners" - supported by highest ranking bureaucrats want to centralise power more, and to maintain economic planning (but also possibly support something like Cybersyn to deviate the power from opportunists?)
- Autonomists - supported by low ranking bureaucrats and national minorities; want political liberalisation and decentralised planning, also want international peace
- Red Army - military personel; idk about this one honestly except that it obviously want to expand the military.
 
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Thanks for welcoming my suggestions.
The old synopsis is quite interesting but if I could, I would suggest something more different from OTL:

Sooo, I thought that it could be interesting to make Zinoviev and Kamenev win the struggle with Stalin, their Soviet Union would still be quite oligrachic but there would be far more intraparty democracy, and without Stalin's purges there would also be far more internal factions, so you could differentiate it from USSR alt-history tropes with Trotsky (well Trotsky is out of the question for the mod premise 'cos he would probably seek war) and Bukhrin, yet you could include neo-trotskyists (more workers focused?), and neo-bukharinists (market proponents?) as possible parties/interest groups (or their flavorisation), however you decide to do it.
It could also make the basic synopsis of the USSR in the original post (in this thread), possibly still true; the rappid, development of industry would still be there but not as reckless as in the otl (resulting in fewer deaths), for example the agriculture could resamble more moderate approach that Polish communists took in otl, that is they backed off from collectivisation instead focusing on mandatory agricultural quotas from private farmers, while also promoting shared use of equipment by farming communities, (they still held onto some state owned farming enterprises tho); and although economy would likely still stagnate the whole political system would not be as disfunctional leaving more possibility to change (and not necessarily too fast too late as Gorbachev did), on the other hand it would be fun to see all the Communist Party Factions go to eachother throats when things go dire due to economic stagnation, yet they would still be technicaly the same party.

Well I am pretty tired right now so it is hard to write my thoughts without external input but maybe I could go with some more detail if we were to brainstorm it.

We have actually discussed things similar to this for other communist countries.

I don't want to clutter this thread with discussion, but if you want to hop over to the discussion thread (or DM me, or come to the discord) then I'd be happy to brainstorm it at length.
 
We have actually discussed things similar to this for other communist countries.

I don't want to clutter this thread with discussion, but if you want to hop over to the discussion thread (or DM me, or come to the discord) then I'd be happy to brainstorm it at length.
Thanks, I might do it when I have some time (and when I'm not so tired, lol).
 
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We have actually discussed things similar to this for other communist countries.

I don't want to clutter this thread with discussion, but if you want to hop over to the discussion thread (or DM me, or come to the discord) then I'd be happy to brainstorm it at length.
Wait, shouldn't we be keeping discussion in the shiny new thread? Wasn't that the whole point of making the new thread?
 
Wait, shouldn't we be keeping discussion in the shiny new thread? Wasn't that the whole point of making the new thread?

I think the plan is to have one for long endless rambly discussions where things get buried more easily, and then another for new people who just want to see what's going on without having to read through 26 pages of interminable back and forth.
 
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