Mods: What approach do you like better?

[seattle]

We had to wait for about one year to finally enjoy Core2.
We only had to wait a couple of months for the first Stony Road version.

Stony has reached its fifth release so far, continual improvement.
Every version introduced new features and balanced the mod step by step.

Core came out with a huge blast. Introduced more new features and changes than SR after 5 releases, completely turned HoI2 upside down.
Of course the downside was two-fold:
1. Completely overwhelmed the veteran player (lack of documentation, too much at once)
2. A sh*tload of bugs which makes the first Core-release at times unplayable (my current Russia game is stuck in 1940 due to repeated CTDs)

_______________________________

My question now:
What do you like better?

The approach of putting out the first release as soon as possible and ever improving it (process is quicker because of user-feedback, plus you can enjoy the mod much earlier).

Or the Core-approach:
High aspirations to revolutionize the game and only release it once everything is perfect. We are all enjoying and at the same time suffering from this decision.

Would it have been better for Core to do the Stony approach (less innovative, but more reliable)?
To be honest, I will wait for the next Core-release before I continue to play. I will return to Stony and A.E.I.O.U. until the next Core-version (at least I will try so, the temptation is huge).

 

[Curious]

I'll take innovation any day - as long as the game is still playable. It may cause more bugs in the short run than a more conservative approach. But bugs can be squashed. We may have had to wait quite a while for CORE2, but it was definitely worth the wait (that's easy to say now). Its bugs will be fixed before long and it's just going to get better and better.

CB

 

[loki_poki]

I'll take innovation any day - as long as the game is still playable. It may cause more bugs in the short run than a more conservative approach. But bugs can be squashed. We may have had to wait quite a while for CORE2, but it was definitely worth the wait (that's easy to say now). Its bugs will be fixed before long and it's just going to get better and better.

CB

Agreed!

 

[seattle]

I am tempted to agree.
Then again, without Stony Road I don't think I would have continued to play HoI2. There are benefits to that approach which can't be denied.

 

[Moltke]

I have to throw my lot with HSR. As seattle said, without it I wouldn't have been able to enjoy HoI2 for as long as I have. I can't wait to play CORE (when it's more polished) and the guys deserve much respect, it's just that I appreciate the simple yet elegant approach of HSR.

 

[Ghost_dk]

Seattle: I think your correct in some ways that the long wait may have caused HoI2 players to find other games while waiting for the mod to come out.

That said HoI1+2 players are quite a different brand then the average PC gamer. The strategic simulations players dont have loads of games to choose from and once tuned into a game rarely leave it on the shelf for long, unlike RTS and FPS players who always have another game comming out in a few weeks that they can try out.

The people playing HoI and interested in mods for the game also have a very high age average compared to your typical computer gamer. 21vikings fx has more then a handful of 50+ gamers registered atm. The above 25-30 crowd of gamers usually have a longer attention span when they see something they like. At least to my experience.

 

[Spruce]

Ghost_dk,

games like HOI2 are in a certain way a symbiosis between the developers and the gamers. Much more then the regular FPS or RTS. Games like galciv and even the take command game (I played the demo) are also symbiotic games.

They start and they grow - same developer - much of the same team - a vision - and they evolve gradually - and commercial succes is based on a long process - with each step a new dimension. I think basicly the HSR and CORE approach are generaly spoken 100% the same - an evolution in dialogue with the community. Only minor differences I see...

What I don't like is a release like "Battlefield 2" where you get the impression you're dealing with a revolution. But the only revolution is graphics - and not the game play cause it ain't a real symbiosis. It's just hit and run - or cash and run.

OMG - I think I'll hit the sack from here ... :wacko:

 

[Evans]

I think the difference is that at face-value HSR gives a much more satisfying sense of progress. CORE however has made quite considerable changes all out at once, being somewhat overwhelming. I think it will just be a case of getting used to things now it's out

 

[unmerged(21482)]

My question now:
What do you like better?

The approach of putting out the first release as soon as possible and ever improving it (process is quicker because of user-feedback, plus you can enjoy the mod much earlier).

Or the Core-approach:
High aspirations to revolutionize the game and only release it once everything is perfect. We are all enjoying and at the same time suffering from this decision.

Would it have been better for Core to do the Stony approach (less innovative, but more reliable)?
To be honest, I will wait for the next Core-release before I continue to play. I will return to Stony and A.E.I.O.U. until the next Core-version (at least I will try so, the temptation is huge).

Hmm... I think why CORE is late if we compare to HSR is because there is so much improvement in CORE so that I think if CORE team can modify the exe file, they will do it and create a new game

I like CORE because it gives me almost different game. And I think it's better to make big differences than make little differences and integrate those differences. Trust me you will find many bugs due to integrating problem especially if we're talking about big mod made by many people.

 

[baylox]

Very good assessment in your first post, seattle - I can only agree.

The beauty of it all is that there is diversity like this - that Stony Road, HIP, Starfire and others came out early (or reasonably so), TRP somewhere in the middle and then CORE now after a long year - that keeps the interest in the game up, and that can spur further development for all mods in the longer run still. It should be remembered too that not all mods are everyone's cup of tea - far from everyone will like CORE (I'm guessing), just like not everyone likes TRP or SR, so this multitude of major mods can only be a good thing for the fan community (fan community being those who more or less "only" play, rather than mod on their own), and thus in extension Paradox even.

Your statement that you won't play CORE until the next version I respect fully, there are many reasonably minor issues to deal with - as well as the "Barbarossa CTD" and "1943 save game bug", that keep CORE from being a completely enjoyable mod (since it will often end sooner than it is supposed to due to these bugs). We'll need to reach version 0.3 or perhaps even 0.4 until we're at a stage where the game can be finished (I believe it can still be enjoyed in the meantime, it just can't be expected to finish it - you can see it as a learning process as a player until it's ready).

What Evans writes is important to note too - HSR (if you like the basic precept) gives a sense of an improved game right off the bat, while CORE (even if you like our precept) at this point only really gives the promise of an improved game. Now personally, I just love researching and building up my country (contrary to the war aspect) so for me it's still fun with what CORE has now (well, with the upcoming bugfixes that is). But that's just me.

Closing note: Stony Road and TRP did also contribute to making CORE what it is now. Last summer we thought about releasing, then yet again around Halloween, but we kept pushing it back and then just abandoning the dates altogether. Part of that reason is that there were playable mods out there already and we wanted to have something that would set us apart. If we would've released this summer it would've been with only revised Air Tech and Air Doctrines trees and very little else. To us (or me, at least) that seemed a bit weak. We'd still have to go through the inc-files and make the relevant changes and we decided to just "do more" and make a grander run through of the inc-files, instead of having to do it multiple times. There were of course other things that have to be considered, but for me personally this is how it felt. Could we have continued to make the sweeping changes if we had released early? I don't know. I hope that we would've (since we still have a few things to do), but I can't say because we would've been so far from our perceived goal.

We've always aimed for a "large scope" modification to HoI2 and now that we have that we have to make it playable.

 

[Evans]

Well, you've already reacted to popular opinion by releasing documentation- the maker-player relationship can really develop again and CORE can once more be a 'Community' effort

 

[baylox]

We aim to please, of course.

 

[Szun]

I do like HSR and i still play it.
I do like CORE better, or at least after its playable
My first CORE game i gave myself, as germany, some edge on research, to see what the techtree does.
I quickly figured out the way it works and what i would choose when i played "for real"
So i practicly check the techtree up to '43 in the time i hit 1940.
I feel confident to handle the load of "new stuff" now and i found some bugs in the process as well.
The most enjoyable features i found in CORE are units germany had and i never really had a chance to build in other mods, like pocket BBs, and the early rocket interceptor(without advanced interceptor tech needed).
I look forward to a more stable release and i hope i can contribute some to find more weak points.

 

[Moltke]

Right now I would be happy if I could port the HSR models into CORE. I simply can't stand the hideous box with an X in it. I guess some of you call them "counters" but I cannot stand the sight of them.

 

[Vethantis]

Right now I would be happy if I could port the HSR models into CORE. I simply can't stand the hideous box with an X in it. I guess some of you call them "counters" but I cannot stand the sight of them.

Pfft - they're beautiful!

 

[unmerged(46637)]

Right now I would be happy if I could port the HSR models into CORE. I simply can't stand the hideous box with an X in it. I guess some of you call them "counters" but I cannot stand the sight of them.

I agree. I use counters on the map already. Having them also as graphics is just making the game excessively bland.

 

[Evans]

Yeah to be fair I thought of changing those pictures to any number of prettier ones available...