Monophysitism

[Tolstoyevsky]

Of course, and Christianity is nothing more than a Judaic heresy.

I'm tending to assume the worst on this; that it is modelled similarily to EU2 - that way, either my fears are confirmed or I'm pleasantly surprised.

So, lemme get this straight: you're afraid of being pleasantly surprise?

 

[Nikolai]

That's not how I read it.

 

[unmerged(16438)]

But since CK seems to simplify everything it can, I won't hold my breath.

Isn't that a bit harsh? From what I've read on these forums the line Paradox has consistently taken is: if it doesn't make the game fun, it's not worth squeezing in for the sake of it.

Sure, we could have the 100+ different sects/heresies of Christianity modelled in the game, but I don't think it would really make it any more fun to play. I'd rather enjoy myself playing CK than have an "accurate" history lesson through my computer (like much history can be called accurate with any certainty).

And no, I'm not saying that a fun game experience and an accurate historical representation are mutually exclusive, just that CK probably isn't going to do that (maybe CK2... )

 

[Solmyr]

Well, I'd wager many, many people play the Paradox games mainly because of the history connection. Otherwise they'd be playing Civ or the Warcraft clones. So I'd say including historical connections whenever possible is a good strategy for Paradox. Especially things that were essential to the period in question (such as different sects like Monophysites and Cathars, given CK's emphasis on religion/crusades).

 

[Wyvern]

Well, I'd wager many, many people play the Paradox games mainly because of the history connection. Otherwise they'd be playing Civ or the Warcraft clones. So I'd say including historical connections whenever possible is a good strategy for Paradox. Especially things that were essential to the period in question (such as different sects like Monophysites and Cathars, given CK's emphasis on religion/crusades).

Agreed. I'd be disappointed if the Cathars for example weren't represented. Personally though I expect province religion will be represented as a percentage of population and that many varieties of Christianity and other religions will be included purely because it was modelled that way in Victoria and I can't see Paradox taking a step back and not using the same coding model in CK...

 

[unmerged(7269)]

What you're trying to say is basically that Islam is nothing but a Christian heresy?

I have, in fact, read an argument that it is exactly that. Non-Christian religions were, to this author (whose name I have forgotten), all lumped together as "paganism". "Paganism" was not a Christian heresy, and therefore pagans were not to be persecuted but converted. But he managed to justify persecution of both Jews and Muslims because their religions were "incomplete Catholicism", and therefore heretical. Apparantly they were "incomplete Catholicism" because they recognized the God of Abraham but not Christ; he characterized Islam as a "radical simplification" of Catholic doctrine. (Protestants were also heretics, of course, but for different reasons.) Thus, both the Crusades and the medieval persecution of Jews were perfectly justified. This was written by an American Roman Catholic author in the early 1930s, as I recall, and as near as I can tell he was completely serious. :wacko:

This interesting historical tidbit aside, I do have a relevant question, which is: Will Jews be represented? They were curiously absent from EU2, apparantly because they did not represent the majority population of any area at the time. I haven't played Victoria, but with religion represented as a percentage of population, I would expect thar Judaism was in the game. So how about CK? Anyone able to find enough wiggle room in the NDA to answer this?

 

[unmerged(16438)]

I have, in fact, read an argument that it is exactly that. Non-Christian religions were, to this author (whose name I have forgotten), all lumped together as "paganism". "Paganism" was not a Christian heresy, and therefore pagans were not to be persecuted but converted. But he managed to justify persecution of both Jews and Muslims because their religions were "incomplete Catholicism", and therefore heretical. Apparantly they were "incomplete Catholicism" because they recognized the God of Abraham but not Christ; he characterized Islam as a "radical simplification" of Catholic doctrine. (Protestants were also heretics, of course, but for different reasons.) Thus, both the Crusades and the medieval persecution of Jews were perfectly justified. This was written by an American Roman Catholic author in the early 1930s, as I recall, and as near as I can tell he was completely serious. :wacko:

Interesting, as Islam basically maintained itself as the "uncorrupted message of God" for quite a long time, recognising itself as part of the same family of religions as Judaism and Christianity. The former had gotten too bogged down in the law, whereas the latter got a bit confused thinking the Prophet Jesus was God's son.

 

[Tolstoyevsky]

Interesting, as Islam basically maintained itself as the "uncorrupted message of God" for quite a long time, recognising itself as part of the same family of religions as Judaism and Christianity. The former had gotten too bogged down in the law, whereas the latter got a bit confused thinking the Prophet Jesus was God's son.

God's son and God himself to be exact. "And the Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool". Amen to that brother!

But this thread was supposed to be about monophysitism, OK, let's not get "bogged down" in theological details or credos.

 

[Cagliostro]

I believe Islam considered "people of the Book" (that is, the Old Testament) as different than everyone else.

But I was surprised that Ethiopia and Nubia are called "Orthodox" in EU2 - I won't be surprised if the Monophysites aren't represented in CK.

 

[Tolstoyevsky]

I believe Islam considered "people of the Book" (that is, the Old Testament) as different than everyone else.

But I was surprised that Ethiopia and Nubia are called "Orthodox" in EU2 - I won't be surprised if the Monophysites aren't represented in CK.

Yeah, I don't think they will be, but, hey, never say never...

 

[unmerged(11633)]

I think monophysites christians will be represented in CK. Sergei said somewhere that there will be several brands of paganism to represent differences between various tribes (Eg, Mongols, lithuanians, etc).

So I'd expect it to be in if there's 3 brands of paganism!

 

[unmerged(16438)]

I think monophysites christians will be represented in CK. Sergei said somewhere that there will be several brands of paganism to represent differences between various tribes (Eg, Mongols, lithuanians, etc).

So I'd expect it to be in if there's 3 brands of paganism!

Are you implying that monophysites are pagans? Controversial...

 

[unmerged(27110)]

Are you implying that monophysites are pagans? Controversial...

I believe he was implying that if there's room for tree types of pagans there should most certainly be room for monophysites.

 

[Martinus]

I wouldn't consider Sergei's comments given few years ago to give a particularly valuable insight into the game.

 

[unmerged(8913)]

I wouldn't consider Sergei's comments given few years ago to give a particularly valuable insight into the game.

Hmm, I'm beginning to get the impression that something less than the stated 95% of the features Sergei posted about will actually be in the game. Seems like everytime a question like this comes up, a beta says that Sergei's posts on the subject aren't necessarily useful anymore...

 

[Arilou]

What you're trying to say is basically that Islam is nothing but a Christian heresy?

The Orthodox actually for quite some time considered Islam to be a christian heresy, on the same level as monophysitism or Nestorianism.

 

[unmerged(16438)]

Wasn't that based on a misunderstanding by Christians that thought Mohammed had wanted to be Pope/Patriarch, and that his "descendents" were trying to take over Christianity to rule it? One of the reasons that Dante put Mohammed in Hell in the Inferno is that he thought he wanted to usurp the Papacy.

 

[Gothmog]

Interesting issue here...my guess is that there could be some category called "Eastern Christians" or some such as a "super category" to represent non-orthodox Christians (monophysitites, or Nestorians) in the eastern territories in general. Either that, or they'll be lumped with heretics in general or something like that (then we'd get a flamestrom on the boards, though). I doubt they'll do a detailed breakdown of all the Christian (or Moslem for that matter) variants...it'd be too much work for small gain. Granted, it would be the best solution as far as historical accuaracy goes, but I for one am not counting on it.

But the above is just a guess...I'm no CK beta...