Monumenta Iaponiae Historica: The records of the Japanese History between 1180 - 1600

[chatnoir17]

Aha! I believed you would be accepting of it. Now when you say, set the cap, you mean there base stats can be up to 15 without traits, or up to 15 with traits, going no further no matter what? Sorry, it's late and that seemed confusing. And so I know, would you care if I edited almost EVERY officer, or would you like the Genpei War officers left alone?

Edit : Meant any officers left alone, not just Genpei War.

I meant that 15 is the final stat-cap with traits. The base stats of a character having final stats 15/15/15 will be higher or lower than 15 without trait effects.

You can change the stats/traits of ALL characters. Some characters in the Genpei scenario have already stat, but I had made it before I added new traits, so changing them is also no problem.

 

[Hister]

Nice to see you getting some help!

 

[SicilianSaint]

Alright, well I'll begin tonight!

 

[soran]

I meant that 15 is the final stat-cap with traits. The base stats of a character having final stats 15/15/15 will be higher or lower than 15 without trait effects.

You can change the stats/traits of ALL characters. Some characters in the Genpei scenario have already stat, but I had made it before I added new traits, so changing them is also no problem.

but that would mess certain things up won't it? i mean the relationship bonus from diplomacy, you're going to have to rework that won't you? and plenty of other things and maybe you should make it a 20? the bigger the range the more gap we can have between a "genius" and a "mediocre" and a "horrible" character.

0-5 = horrible
6-10 = mediocre
11-15 = good
16-20 = Nobunaga, Mitsuhide, Ujiyasu, Hideyoshi, Ieyasu etc etc etc

 

[chatnoir17]

but that would mess certain things up won't it? i mean the relationship bonus from diplomacy, you're going to have to rework that won't you? and plenty of other things and maybe you should make it a 20? the bigger the range the more gap we can have between a "genius" and a "mediocre" and a "horrible" character.

0-5 = horrible
6-10 = mediocre
11-15 = good
16-20 = Nobunaga, Mitsuhide, Ujiyasu, Hideyoshi, Ieyasu etc etc etc

The last etc... is the problem. Working with the game mechanic of Sengoku and also looking at characters in CK2, now I realize that characters over 15 should be quite rare. Even Charlemagne doesn't have 20/20/20 in game. Please note that many people (also me) are affected by the character evaluation of Nobunaga's Ambition series, where so many supermen live. So I think we could go on another way. Of course some characters should have over 15 stat in this condition. (f.e. Ueshigi Kenshin could have ca.18 martial skill, but his diplomacy/intrigue stats should be around 10, since he couldn't control some vassals in North Echigo and Kanto region.)

@ScilianSaint
So, please remind this "guideline".

 

[SicilianSaint]

The last etc... is the problem. Working with the game mechanic of Sengoku and also looking at characters in CK2, now I realize that characters over 15 should be quite rare. Even Charlemagne doesn't have 20/20/20 in game. Please note that many people (also me) are affected by the character evaluation of Nobunaga's Ambition series, where so many supermen live. So I think we could go on another way. Of course some characters should have over 15 stat in this condition. (f.e. Ueshigi Kenshin could have ca.18 martial skill, but his diplomacy/intrigue stats should be around 10, since he couldn't control some vassals in North Echigo and Kanto region.)

@ScilianSaint
So, please remind this "guideline".

Yes, I will. I am also, affected by Nobunaga's Ambition, as I play it religiously every now and then. Would you care if I made for example, Nobunaga.. 13/18/19 ( Not his final stats, just an example )

 

[soran]

The last etc... is the problem. Working with the game mechanic of Sengoku and also looking at characters in CK2, now I realize that characters over 15 should be quite rare. Even Charlemagne doesn't have 20/20/20 in game. Please note that many people (also me) are affected by the character evaluation of Nobunaga's Ambition series, where so many supermen live. So I think we could go on another way. Of course some characters should have over 15 stat in this condition. (f.e. Ueshigi Kenshin could have ca.18 martial skill, but his diplomacy/intrigue stats should be around 10, since he couldn't control some vassals in North Echigo and Kanto region.)

@ScilianSaint
So, please remind this "guideline".

I'm a NA player too

and i don't really think it'd be a problem really, here's the scheme i had in mind when i said that:

Nobunaga: 14/16/13
Ieyasu: 18/8/16
Mitsuhide: 14/17/14
Ujiyasu: 18/14/15

they might excel in one/two area/s or be balanced officers. this would make the difference more clear when you compare them with say, the miyoshi 2nd generation or otomo yoshishige's kids [horrible officer-wise stats] or Terumoto [mediocre stats, like: 8/7/9], and plenty of others.

 

[chatnoir17]

Yes, I will. I am also, affected by Nobunaga's Ambition, as I play it religiously every now and then. Would you care if I made for example, Nobunaga.. 13/18/19 ( Not his final stats, just an example )

In my opinion, his Dip. skill is higher than Mil. or Int., but as you suggested, he is one of the men who could have over 15 stat.

and i don't really think it'd be a problem really, here's the scheme i had in mind when i said that:

F.e. the high diplomacy of rulers make a game very stable. And personally I don't like the stat inflation and extreme heroism of that series.

Nobunaga: 14/16/13
Ieyasu: 18/8/16
Mitsuhide: 14/17/14
Ujiyasu: 18/14/15

I don't understand why Ieyasu has mediocre Dip., but otherwise it looks nice.
Here is some check points for the stats evaluation with historical dates.
1. Martial
- skill as soldier
- skill as commander
- skill as general
- military innovation
- how many provinces he took.
2. Diplomacy
- skill as province owner
- skill as merchant
- skill as monk
- skill as bureaucrat
- how many provinces he could keep.
- skill to keep the loyalty of vassals
- political innovation
3. Intrigue
- skill as plotter
- skill as assassin
- skill to plan operations in battles

Some thought about characters
Ashikaga Yoshiaki (3/7/12)
Chosokabe Motochika (13/10/8)
Mori Motonari (13/14/18)
Saito Dosan (20/12/15)

Please also note that we can characterize them with traits. It is a special feature of Sengoku.

In addition, I would like to hear if you have suggestions about additional educational or life style traits. I think now is the last time to add these traits.

 

[soran]

my bad, for Ieyasu it's supposed to be the opposite, the way i went on the stats is like this: diplomacy/martial/intrigue

edit:

Some thought about characters
Ashikaga Yoshiaki (3/7/12)
Chosokabe Motochika (13/10/8)
Mori Motonari (13/14/18)
Saito Dosan (20/12/15)
.

using the diplo/martial/intrigue scheme, i think i'll modify them a little if you don't mind, it's just a suggestion though:

Yoshiaki: 13/5/15
Motochika: 13/15/9
Motonari: 15/9/19
Dosan: 13/10/20

 

[chatnoir17]

I don't know why I did give Dosan Dip. 20... It should be lower. his Int. should be higher, though.

my bad, for Ieyasu it's supposed to be the opposite, the way i went on the stats is like this: diplomacy/martial/intrigue

edit:



using the diplo/martial/intrigue scheme, i think i'll modify them a little if you don't mind, it's just a suggestion though:

Yoshiaki: 13/5/15
Motochika: 13/15/9
Motonari: 15/9/19
Dosan: 13/10/20

it looks just small changes, so I don't mind. My thought in the last post is not authentic one.

Thinking stats and traits is really fun, but this game handles over 100 years, so stats/traits of characters are not truly important after all. In addition, we can't reach the conclusion, if we don't directly use the stats of NA...
Because of this, personally I would like to think rather how I can add more historical events, f.e. the episode of three arrows of Mori Motonari, or legendary battles of Kawanakajima.
About traits and stats, you all can add what you want, if you can pay attention on the guideline above.

 

[Tatsunoshi]

Just a quick note-as Chatnoir has hinted at, be VERY careful when assigning stats to 'legendary' leaders. Remember, gunkimono (war tales) and clan histories were written to exaggerate their accomplishments and make them sound as superhuman as possible. Using Nobunaga No Yabou as a base is worrisome since it's considered far more of an 'arcade' game than a sim. Even leaders as storied as Nobunaga routinely lost battles, were outmaneuvered in diplomacy, and generally showed they were just as human as anyone. We don't need something like the 'Super Kenshin' that shows up in the PS3 Nobunaga games...

 

[soran]

i agree, however i think we're just trying to make it clear who is better than who, for example you can't compare sakuma [forgot his first name, but i'm talking about the guy who got banished later on not the one who served shibata] to say akechi, game-state-wise, the first would get a 6/8/5 and the later something like 16/15/13.

basically i agree that we should have a limit to the stats instead of having your leader's martial skyrocket over 25 and gain an incredible edge in fights. however, i think it would be important to find a method to control expansion, by that, i mean, if i'm friendly with someone, he shouldn't invade me just because he has 100 honor points and enough troops to conquer my lands no problem.

edit: on the note of NA 13, in the PUK version, i modified most of the "big guys" stats lowering them to 70s and some even 60s and 50s just to make sure they remain in a level where the others can compete against them, specially if we take in mind the fact that they have items that boost their abilities, so the "edge they get" over the generic officers are coming from the items themselves

 

[chatnoir17]

Just a quick note-as Chatnoir has hinted at, be VERY careful when assigning stats to 'legendary' leaders. Remember, gunkimono (war tales) and clan histories were written to exaggerate their accomplishments and make them sound as superhuman as possible. Using Nobunaga No Yabou as a base is worrisome since it's considered far more of an 'arcade' game than a sim. Even leaders as storied as Nobunaga routinely lost battles, were outmaneuvered in diplomacy, and generally showed they were just as human as anyone. We don't need something like the 'Super Kenshin' that shows up in the PS3 Nobunaga games...

The evaluation of stats is one problem in the NA series.　Some characters have low stats simply because the developer doesn't know their achievements (in Sengoku, I think we should give mediocre stats for them), and others are over exaggerated with historical records.

We should also consider that there are so few random characters having all three stats over 10, and stat 10 doesn't seem to be the mean value of this game. I mean, if we convert a common character from NA having Mil 50, Dip 50 and Int 50 into Sengoku, he should have 10/10/10, but it means he is a very useful guy in this game.

In addition to this, I doubt that the cap of the stats in Sengoku is really 0-20. Personally, ca. 15-18 stats look like the real cap.

 

[chatnoir17]

i agree, however i think we're just trying to make it clear who is better than who, for example you can't compare sakuma [forgot his first name, but i'm talking about the guy who got banished later on not the one who served shibata] to say akechi, game-state-wise, the first would get a 6/8/5 and the later something like 16/15/13.

I must say this evaluation depends mainly on the document in which Nobunaga scolded him and dismissed. Before that, he could do well as one of the most important retainers of Nobunaga, even though Mitsuhide was talented than him.

 

[soran]

I must say this evaluation depends mainly on the document in which Nobunaga scolded him and dismissed. Before that, he could do well as one of the most important retainers of Nobunaga, even though Mitsuhide was talented than him.

true that's what i was basing my stats for him there.

however i hardly recall him doing something big, he was part of some of the major battles, but i don't recall him doing something significant, ofcourse that might just be because i don't know.... stat-wise, maybe he should get 3 more points on each stat? you know, to make him more of a "so-so" general?

 

[Drakken]

Yes, I will. I am also, affected by Nobunaga's Ambition, as I play it religiously every now and then. Would you care if I made for example, Nobunaga.. 13/18/19 ( Not his final stats, just an example )

As long as the Takeda are not superhumans like in the last iterations of the series.

 

[Drakken]

however i hardly recall him doing something big, he was part of some of the major battles, but i don't recall him doing something significant, ofcourse that might just be because i don't know.... stat-wise, maybe he should get 3 more points on each stat? you know, to make him more of a "so-so" general?

Mitsuhide wasn't an extraordinary general, but he was known as a very cultured and intelligent man, and a master of court etiquette. After the Saito clan was destroyed he was the main intercessor between Nobunaga and the Shogun's court, as a member of the kuge class himself. After which he was given Tamba as a fief, and was quite an able daimyo of his own and a good commander, albeit with less results than Hideyoshi against the Mori in the Chugoku region.

While his military stats should make him competent, his diplomatic skills should be very good.

 

[SicilianSaint]

Mitsuhide wasn't an extraordinary general, but he was known as a very cultured and intelligent man, and a master of court etiquette. After the Saito clan was destroyed he was the main intercessor between Nobunaga and the Shogun's court, as a member of the kuge class himself. After which he was given Tamba as a fief, and was quite an able daimyo of his own and a good commander, albeit with less results than Hideyoshi against the Mori in the Chugoku region.

While his military stats should make him competent, his diplomatic skills should be very good.

Yup, already had that in mind. For Mitsunari I'm thinking of making him.. 9/7/14-18. Maybe more. Diplomacy is low due to the events of Sekigahara, how many people on both sides disliked him, and his military stats as was said above. He was a VERY cunning and manipulative person, after all, formed an army to be known in history. And would you like me to convert the NA officers in that format, like 50 50 50 = 10 10 10? Personally I'd rather not do that as everyone else would be a god except for those like Hideaki Kobayakawa

 

[chatnoir17]

true that's what i was basing my stats for him there.

however i hardly recall him doing something big, he was part of some of the major battles, but i don't recall him doing something significant, ofcourse that might just be because i don't know.... stat-wise, maybe he should get 3 more points on each stat? you know, to make him more of a "so-so" general?

In my opinion, it makes more sense.

 

[chatnoir17]

Yup, already had that in mind. For Mitsunari I'm thinking of making him.. 9/7/14-18. Maybe more. Diplomacy is low due to the events of Sekigahara, how many people on both sides disliked him, and his military stats as was said above. He was a VERY cunning and manipulative person, after all, formed an army to be known in history. And would you like me to convert the NA officers in that format, like 50 50 50 = 10 10 10? Personally I'd rather not do that as everyone else would be a god except for those like Hideaki Kobayakawa

I have mentioned about this in a earlier post.

The evaluation of stats is one problem in the NA series.　Some characters have low stats simply because the developer doesn't know their achievements (in Sengoku, I think we should give mediocre stats for them), and others are over exaggerated with historical records.

We should also consider that there are so few random characters having all three stats over 10, and stat 10 doesn't seem to be the mean value of this game. I mean, if we convert a common character from NA having Mil 50, Dip 50 and Int 50 into Sengoku, he should have 10/10/10, but it means he is a very useful guy in this game.

In addition to this, I doubt that the cap of the stats in Sengoku is really 0-20. Personally, ca. 15-18 stats look like the real cap.