More and deeper trade

[treb]

One thing that ck2 touched upon but left infuriatingly shallow was trade with its silk route that for some reason did not end in Constantinople and a very basic attempt to add trade goods in the form of gold mines in west Africa.

This left trade as non existent west of the Levant and north of the middle east and could basically summed up as "build here for money".

When it was so much more!
To give a few examples the early medieval Cornish traded tin ore with the Byzantines for wine.

The Byzantines ran the only large scale silk production west of China giving them a monopoly that sustained there economy for centuries.

Salt was a huge trade good manufactured in Spain and Germany then sold on by the merchant republics.

India and China made the eastern Mediterranean ludicrously wealthy by letting the silks and spices flow west.

By 1337 a full half of the kingdom of England's revenue was from the wool trade. Trade was as much a part of medieval life as was death and taxes.


Im just spitballing an idea here so feel free to your own ideas/critisisms.

From what I can tell from reserching trade in them days is that medieval trade largely relied not on centralization but on production of goods for sale eg The English produced wool that was sold to the dutch who made cloth from the who then sold that on.... With European cloth, textiles, ores and wines being in high demand in The East with silk and spices in high demand in The West. On the micro level it would be farms producing raw materials to sell then buying in necessities, a shift from home production of essentials to buying in the essentials.

the main thing was non perishable and goods that's value wouldn't depreciate.

One last disclaimer I have no idea if this is implementable its all just an idea

a base list of trade goods that were historically big business

Wool
Wine
Dyes
Salt
Tin
Iron
Silver
Gold
Fur
Silk
Spices
Incense
Gems
Leather
Flax

Each good would be placed in certain historical areas that were a major center of production and production building which ups its base rate.

Next would be buildings that take certain goods and create a new good, that can be built anywhere but the closer to the required resource the better, mainly Cloth since its production was mainly outside the arias that produced the raw resorces required

lastly a slight retooling of the already in game trade system to allow the set up of a few dedicated posts for each good so if you are running a huge textile industry you can get dyes and base fabrics to make even more revenue, or simply more spices and silks because you are a decedent twat.

Each good giving a small bonus to the demesne:

Wool -0.1 unrest
Wine -0.5 unrest
Dyes - Vassal opinion +1
Salt -5% attrition for troops
Tin - feudal opinion +5
Iron 2.5% levies
Silver +50% taxes
Gold +100% taxes
Fur- --0.1 unrest
Silk vassal opinion +10
Spices vassal opinion +3
Incense- Church opinion +5
Gems prestige +1
Leather -0.1 unrest
Flax -0.1 unrest
Cloth town opinion +5

 

[gekj]

As merchant republics are not in at release I don't think we'll have a deep trade system at launch. But yes trade need to ne better. Something close to imperator trade system would be fine.

 

[Arona]

Well if there were somekind of trade then would rather prefer population deman for some resources not just random resources give random bonuses

 

[Serenity84]

Yeah, trade goods and local trade in western Europe would be great. Salt production and trade especially made the cities involved in it filthy rich. You can still see that today in the buildings. There are also rivers and cities named after that.

not just random resources give random bonuses

I'm generally against the EU4 approach of these bonuses with a few percent here and there. But a demand system has to have consequences if you don't fulfill it. More unrest models that. Though of course you could have demand first and only then unrest.

 

[sortulv]

Are we merchant princes or actual nobility?
Trade is something that should help boost ones coffer, not be a core part of the game. It is possible that a good implementation comes along with a better type of merchant republics, but I'm doubtful that specific goods would ever add anything to the game. And especially not production chains -> this is more like the Vicky series than anything else - and that is way to complex for CK.

 

[treb]

Are we merchant princes or actual nobility?
Trade is something that should help boost ones coffer, not be a core part of the game. It is possible that a good implementation comes along with a better type of merchant republics, but I'm doubtful that specific goods would ever add anything to the game. And especially not production chains -> this is more like the Vicky series than anything else - and that is way to complex for CK.

This wouldn't be core gameplay it would be something that you can invest in to make money and give the world a bit more depth.

Well if there were somekind of trade then would rather prefer population deman for some resources not just random resources give random bonuses

Yeah, trade goods and local trade in western Europe would be great. Salt production and trade especially made the cities involved in it filthy rich. You can still see that today in the buildings. There are also rivers and cities named after that.


I'm generally against the EU4 approach of these bonuses with a few percent here and there. But a demand system has to have consequences if you don't fulfill it. More unrest models that. Though of course you could have demand first and only then unrest.

Id like supply and demand too but that would probably be harder to balance if Vicky 2 was anything to go by...

 

[Torngasuk]

I agree that economics should be better represented, and some provinces should definitely be much wealthier than others and prizes to hold (the tin mines of Cornwall are an excellent example, or the silver mines in Bohemia), but the actual mechanisms of trade in its competitive aspects would be better reserved for maritime and inland republic gameplay, I think. It is the duty of the king's ministers to raise funds and collect taxes: it is the king's pleasure to spend them. Now, the questions of which vassals are paying their tribute and who's in arrears or holding out, and the crown's debts to the Jewish or Italian moneylenders, or convincing the nobility and the bishops to pay a special war tax to fund an invasion, those are questions of economy a king need concern himself with. If one wishes to know the going rate of cheese, then apply to a cheesemonger.

 

[treb]

I agree that economics should be better represented, and some provinces should definitely be much wealthier than others and prizes to hold (the tin mines of Cornwall are an excellent example, or the silver mines in Bohemia), but the actual mechanisms of trade in its competitive aspects would be better reserved for maritime and inland republic gameplay, I think. It is the duty of the king's ministers to raise funds and collect taxes: it is the king's pleasure to spend them. Now, the questions of which vassals are paying their tribute and who's in arrears or holding out, and the crown's debts to the Jewish or Italian moneylenders, or convincing the nobility and the bishops to pay a special war tax to fund an invasion, those are questions of economy a king need concern himself with. If one wishes to know the going rate of cheese, then apply to a cheesemonger.

As I envision it, it would be more passive income you can optionally invest into to promote rather than something you directly run, but keep in mind the Byzantines and Arabs were more interventionist and centralized in terms of production and trade.

 

[Serenity84]

Id like supply and demand too but that would probably be harder to balance if Vicky 2 was anything to go by...

I think the idea was more an event like "My liege, the rabble is demanding furs and salt. What do we do?". Not a complicated economy simulation

Of course there are issues with turning the game into some kind of Soviet-style state economy when a lot this was carried out by private parties. But rulers also had an interest in creating and supporting certain "industries".

 

[treb]

I think the idea was more an event like "My liege, the rabble is demanding furs and salt. What do we do?". Not a complicated economy simulation

Of course there are issues with turning the game into some kind of Soviet-style state economy when a lot this was carried out by private parties. But rulers also had an interest in creating and supporting certain "industries".

That would be good in lieu of a flat bonus, I agree and to clear up any misconceptions by vicky 2 I meant it strictly to its asymmetric production where imported goods could supply native industry which while technically was what was going on in game terms was well out the jurisdiction of most rulers.

 

[sortulv]

This wouldn't be core gameplay it would be something that you can invest in to make money and give the world a bit more depth.

Making complex trade and not calling it core gameplay would be like the character events Johan talked about in I:R. Lots of work for the developers that the player never sees. It would also be a performance hog. And what does it add to the game that a simple province modifier (rich trade +xx% tax) does not?

 

[Dunaedine]

There is some good mods in CK2 for inspiration, for instance: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1812286001

 

[Arona]

Making complex trade and not calling it core gameplay would be like the character events Johan talked about in I:R. Lots of work for the developers that the player never sees. It would also be a performance hog. And what does it add to the game that a simple province modifier (rich trade +xx% tax) does not?

well province modifers cant manipulated it will be usually given for some time frame is it 6 months or 10 years and player usually cant impact the result, it has always been random. In more dynamic world it should be, ruler has a choice to let trade flow or start a war that distrupts trade or embargo neighbours to harm they trade but also have trade penalty for yourself.

I think there should be merchantile modifer also in CK3 where you can focus on local economy or global economy

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

I'm all for land trade routes in Europe (as they existed and were damn relevant!)

 

[Cardolam]

I am all for adding detail to the management part of the game, regarding demesne/realm economic and social variables. Trade certainly fits the bill.

 

[Dmitrius]

This is difficult for me because I love trade economic mechanics in games and yet I feel like it's anathema to the design pillars as stated thus far.

If they do it I want it done well, but I think if we see it, it will be DLC some way off. They've already said merchant republics are out for the initial launch.