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Interesting point there. I don’t think there can be any doubt that most human players will be able to overcome the AI in most situations.

The differential between the tactical, although operational would be the correct term I believe, and strategic is clear. Tactical advantage is discussed already but I’m not convinced that the benefits of ‘set’ as opposed to informal alliance at a strategic level are really there.

The fundamental problems of human alliances remain. Firstly, one partner gets to choose the AI countries, unless there is a clear threat this can be decidedly difficult. Secondly, the alliance size is reduced considerably from a potential 10 countries down to 5. Thirdly, in the event of war it is highly unlikely that the AI countries will support both human powers due to relationship points. Ie. Those AI countries that like Austria are often hostile to, say, France. Meaning that upon mobilisation of allies one finds that one’s alliance partners refuse to participate.

I don’t see stabbing in the back as a problem. An imbalance in the BoP is plain for all to see and changes in sides will invariably be clear. We all know that in large long term MP games that stability can become a key issue, countries simply can not afford the large stability loss that would be accrued in changing sides. Of course they could remain on the sidelines and this is a danger.

But perhaps most importantly is that if there is a real threat, and most wars are sparked by shifts, or attempted shifts in the Balance of Power (BoP), then any player who has a real EU mind will seek to rectify that shift with political and subsequent military power. Alliances don’t need to be sealed with a stamp when such a threat emerges, players generally gravitate into one corner or another in times of crisis. Whilst I am no doubt that there will be times when there will be a real need for human alliances when a significant BoP threat emerges for most of the time I think its largely arguable that AI alliances are most advantageous. For those players that simply engage in AI gobbling exercises regardless of events on their own borders face countries that they simply can not face off in the long run. Perhaps because so many players don’t play continuation games that I seem to encounter this bizarre form of strategic suicide in my continuation games so often.
 
I understand you rationale for prefering AI alliances, but have to argue that human player country alliances can be considerably more fun and diplomatically and tactically creative. For example, if human player A has a CB on a country neighboring his human player ally B who does not have a CB, A could declare war allowing B to join in to beat up on the neighboring country without any stability penalty. I have yet to see an AI ally do this sort of thing.

Another example comes to mind in a nappy MP game played a while back. France, a human player country, was beating up on Austria, an AI country, in a big way while Prussia, another human player country, had a big army poised and ready to intervene on behalf of Austria. Repeated requests by Prussia for military access to Austia were denied by the AI even when nearly every province in Austria was controlled by France.

Yet another example taken from the same nappy game happened after Austria made peace with France and France decided to go after English possessions in Northern Europe (and probably eventually Prussia). Prussia, France, and England were all controlled by human players and when France entered English territory, Prussia and England combined their forces most efficiently to force the French to retreat. Now you could argue a good French player would have won the day anyway, but it's also true if one of the allied countries had been AI controlled, the counter attack would not have been anywhere near as effective.
 
Originally posted by bmoores
For those players that simply engage in AI gobbling exercises regardless of events on their own borders face countries that they simply can not face off in the long run. Perhaps because so many players don’t play continuation games that I seem to encounter this bizarre form of strategic suicide in my continuation games so often.

I think the feeling for the BoP comes for most players with experience:

I have been playing risk (yeah, the good old board game) with basically the same group of friends for over 20 years now. By now we are so concerned about the BoP that a lot of games will last at least 5 h because of constant alliance changes. Only when somebody new enters our round who doesn't care about the BoP it becomes tricky (well, for him :) ).


But some players will never get that understanding for BoP. And that's where it can become interesting - for instance they allow an Uber-Brandenburg for shortterm egoistic reasons. And then, one day it is too late ... . :)
 
Originally posted by Isebrand


But some players will never get that understanding for BoP. And that's where it can become interesting - for instance they allow an Uber-Brandenburg for shortterm egoistic reasons. And then, one day it is too late ... . :)

Groan...... it was my first real mistake and I'm not going to be forgiven am I....... Anyway the threat has gone now
 
Originally posted by Isebrand


I have been playing risk (yeah, the good old board game) with basically the same group of friends for over 20 years now. By now we are so concerned about the BoP that a lot of games will last at least 5 h because of constant alliance changes. Only when somebody new enters our round who doesn't care about the BoP it becomes tricky (well, for him :) ).

I thought this was hilarious....
Only wargamers of long illustrious history could do this.
 
Originally posted by band
I understand you rationale for prefering AI alliances, but have to argue that human player country alliances can be considerably more fun and diplomatically and tactically creative. For example, if human player A has a CB on a country neighboring his human player ally B who does not have a CB, A could declare war allowing B to join in to beat up on the neighboring country without any stability penalty. I have yet to see an AI ally do this sort of thing.

Another example comes to mind in a nappy MP game played a while back. France, a human player country, was beating up on Austria, an AI country, in a big way while Prussia, another human player country, had a big army poised and ready to intervene on behalf of Austria. Repeated requests by Prussia for military access to Austia were denied by the AI even when nearly every province in Austria was controlled by France.

Yet another example taken from the same nappy game happened after Austria made peace with France and France decided to go after English possessions in Northern Europe (and probably eventually Prussia). Prussia, France, and England were all controlled by human players and when France entered English territory, Prussia and England combined their forces most efficiently to force the French to retreat. Now you could argue a good French player would have won the day anyway, but it's also true if one of the allied countries had been AI controlled, the counter attack would not have been anywhere near as effective.

I dont that there is doubt that the AI is not as good but they are remarkably useful. Althought they do make stupid mistakes as you point out above.

I'm not damning human alliances, dont get me wrong. I simply think that players with some experience will intervene when one major power is grinding another into the dust. I'll be the first to form a human alliance when I see a human major beinging to dominate.

I think my point is simply this. AI alliances are underutilised as they are good for keeping the BoP. It stops those players who expand into the AI regardless of the situation and events around him. U can trap them in and economically develop giving you a lead over them.
 
Agreed, bmoores. I wonder, however, if one should have only AI or only human alliances at any one point in the game and not mix human with AI alliances. I'm not sure this should be a rule of thumb, but have had to deal with untimely bad diplomatic calls from the AI controlled country. What do you think? Typically, the human alliances I've been in (that were on truly friendly terms) tried to work together to accomplish certain diplomatic or military goals. Whenever there has been an AI country in the otherwise all human player alliance, it seems it takes action detrimental to the goals of the human players. One example is the AI country declaring war on some country when the human players are trying to expand their colonial empires and don't want to initiate nearby hostilities.
 
Interesting point as to whether diplomatic calls from AI countries are a bad thing or not. Yes they can be inconvienent but one wonders if they are not a double edged sword.

If 2 human powers dont want a war then they are going to call for a diplomatic peace regardless of the situation. You offer a white peace and will get it if the other country doesnt want war.

Alternatively it might be that the diplomatic call is a useful way of circumventing a lack of a CB. It is especially useful against the big BB players who you want to fight but dont want to lose the stability to fight.

Its also a good way of keeping other players alert and cautious. Will you intervene or not? Can they really afford to annex your ally baden and risk your potential backlash? In the meantime they have to deal with the country which impeeds them from getting on with other matters. The key is to declare very loudly that any territorial loss from any of your allies will turn a cold war into a hot one.
 
On Fortiifcations

A post I made on the general board that applies here.

I see some very good reasons for MP players to make use of fortiifcations a great deal more than they might in SP. My reasoning is this.

Real players are very good at dealing knock out blows in MP wars. Normally there will be no more than a couple of large battles that will decide the campaign, one side will lose his leaders and field army and be forced on the defensive. At this point the losing side can only survive total defeat if he can do one of two things both of which depend heavily on the fortification levels within his country. The fortification levels within his country will buy him time, either to force war exhaustion in the opposing country or to buy enough time to allow other players to intervene on his behalf as the Balance of Power begins to tilt. Either of these incidents will allow the losing player to buy an honourable peace at the cost of a few provinces instead of total defeat. Fortifications are effectively a way of staying in the game.

An additional reason is to stop raiding and looting. Real players with small groups of cavalry can cut your income and burn large numbers of trade posts before you can finally catch them dealing out economic damage way beyond their actual cost.
 
I agree on the fortifications.
An additional point here might be, as I just learned, that your country might be played by the AI for a couple of years in a continuation game.

And strong fortifications might help the AI a little bit.
 
Originally posted by Isebrand
I agree on the fortifications.
An additional point here might be, as I just learned, that your country might be played by the AI for a couple of years in a continuation game.

And strong fortifications might help the AI a little bit.
And that's the thing i don't like at all. IMHO, it's better to have more games at the same time, than dropping players. And due to that reason, i don't think more than 5 players are good thing.
 
Good points all. Concerning AI vs. human player alliances in MP, I agree a DOW done by an AI ally can be useful if my country does not have a CB. However, if I haven't beefed up my forces appropriately to fully exploit the war, then it may be fruitless. In other words, I cannot control when or even if my AI ally will declare war so it's difficult to prepare for it. With human player allies, we can talk it through and coordinate. I don't believe at this point though that the neagatives outweigh the positives of AI alliances so I'll continue to use them.