MP Tricks, Tactics, and Strategies

[King John]

Specifically using internet lag as a tool to knowingly obtain a result or advantage the game engine would not otherwise let you do, is an exploit, not a 'tactic"---and should not be used.

What about lag orders? When you've got a crucial leader like Blucher who's down to 5k and Napoleon or whoever is chasing him with a 300k army, do you wait until the battle begins to begin a retreat, so as not to use lag to your advantage, or do you spam your retreat orders like a maniac, so that your orders will arrive just as the battle starts?

It sounds one that only puts you on the same level as the host, but it actually gives the lagger an advantage. When a battle begins, you get popups that can prevent you from retreating quickly enough. If they cost you only a day or two, that can cost you your army easily. But if you're lagging, say by three days, three days before the battle you've spammed your orders, and then when the battle starts and you get the popups, you've already retreated so there's no chance of losing the army because of the annoying popups.

It's unfair to the host, but of course the host has advantages of his own. In most situations, war is easiest for the host because he's the most uptodate player on the battlefield. If you argue for players taking no advantage of lag, you're arguing that the host be granted huge advantages over everyone else. , with nothing to compensate the other players.

 

[Wyvern]

Rather meaningless to state it is cheating when you do not define what you mean with that concept. It does not add anything to the debate unless you are such an authority that your mere word has some significance.

And quite surprising you do not define it after I suggested a definition.

If you can't see that those lag tactics Ryo suggested are cheating then there really isn't any point discussing it with you Daniel. He defined them pretty damn well and I'm just calling a spade a spade.

 

[ForzaA]

as much as I hate lag-(whatever)..

Ryoken's Galley-Armada, Attrition-retreat and Siege train are valid tactics, which now get practically no attention ..

 

[Wyvern]

as much as I hate lag-(whatever)..

Ryoken's Galley-Armada, Attrition-retreat and Siege train are valid tactics, which now get practically no attention ..

Yep - but lag vassalising and lag colonists ...... :wacko:

 

[Slargos]

The galley armada is Mulliman's trick. Honours is where honour's due.

I think, regarding lag exploit, that it's pretty simple.

You're using a concept that is not part of the game-code, ie internet "lag" in a way that increases your efficiency in the game. I don't think there's anything borderline about it. It's cheating, plain and simple.

What if I were to create an applet that gives me lag at will by strangling my connection? Every time I want to colonize, I turn it on and whoopsie, lots of colonists.

Would this be cheating? I'm merely increasing an effect that is already there naturally, after all.

 

[King John]

You should give him credit for throwing this stuff out in the open. Now that it's there and more people will become aware of these exploits, it will be easier to recognize and tell people who use them to stop. The first time I saw someone get multiple vassalages of a country I had no idea how that was possible, but after understanding the exploit it's easy to confront someone who uses it and either penalize them or tell them to not do it again.

I did encourage sharing exploits in the first post as well as tactics and strategies, for this reason and because it's kinda amusing to hear about them. When Ryoken explained the vassal lag trick, I thought it was pretty clever. He was ordered not to use it again for obvious reasons, but I have to give him credit for his innovation.

 

[PJL]

Thanks for showing players how to use horribly gamey exploits, Ryo. Using lag colonists and vassalizations/annexations is a major exploit, and I'm disgusted to hear that you yourself use them.

Don't you just hate those ex-smokers who go all preachy about the evils of smoking etc once they've given up.....

 

[unmerged(27108)]

Rather meaningless to state it is cheating when you do not define what you mean with that concept. It does not add anything to the debate unless you are such an authority that your mere word has some significance.

And quite surprising you do not define it after I suggested a definition.

I think he defined it quite clearly :

"It's gaining an advantage the game engine wouldn't normally give and that the games host will never have the opportunity to get. "


Having an advantage that 1 opponent can't have is cheating IMO. Just use common sense. Pure logic is sometime misleading.

 

[Hive]

as much as I hate lag-(whatever)..

Ryoken's Galley-Armada, Attrition-retreat and Siege train are valid tactics, which now get practically no attention ..

Those tactics aren't the ones we complain about.

Don't you just hate those ex-smokers who go all preachy about the evils of smoking etc once they've given up.....

More like an ex-whore who became a nun...

Yeah yeah, I used to be Lord of the Loans... will you bastards never let me forget about that little incident?

 

[unmerged(5161)]

The greatest tool against hackers is EX-HACKERS!
The greatest tool against con artists is EX-CON-ARTISTS!

Wake up and smell the lag.

Wouldnt it be better for people to know how the tricks work so that.. (a) they can be alert for it and (b) they can preemptively ban it?

You think this is cheating? Oh my friends you have no idea how naughty the bad boys can be! This is exploiting. Cheating is host-editing-save-file. And I am not talking primitive edits, boys. I can give you cheats that are virtually undetectable. Here is an example:

DELAYED FREEBIES:

Each unit in the save file contains a development line. Copy an existing unit, change the development line to "development = yes". Change the date to whenever you want the unit to appear. Change the id to be unique. Change the numbers to what you want. BAM! Free troops. You can set the date to be ANY TIME. I could edit the 1512 save to give me free troops in 1815. No problem. It is all saved. And no graphics to fudge it up either, totally invisible. Unless a player with RM/Alliance just happens to be watching the right spot, no one will know.

You can simply change the conversion entry for any ongoing conversion to succeed (or fail for your enemies, but more likely to get caught). Copy a conversion in progress and then change the province ID. No graphics will appear. Just claim it was a random event (no way to prove otherwise). This is great for an Ottoman Veneto (MUWAHAHAHAA). Look at a fort that is upgrading in the save file. Copy the syntax to a different province. BAM, free fort on a date of your choosing.



Dont complain about cheating. Learn about cheating and then develop a response. I am going out on a limb to share this knowledge, so dont blow back in my face like a dickhole. Dont kill the messenger. Listen to the message and make your own decision about how to respond to it.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

I think he defined it quite clearly :

"It's gaining an advantage the game engine wouldn't normally give and that the games host will never have the opportunity to get. "


Having an advantage that 1 opponent can't have is cheating IMO. Just use common sense. Pure logic is sometime misleading.

He-he. I just waited for this, the 2nd of your statements. You know Balinus, the host has the advantage of not getting lag (which often is an advantage). If you are the host and I am not and I lag and you kill my general in battle because I do not get my retreat order in quick enough, because of the lag, and at the same time you in another battle get away because you do not lag, then you are cheating according to your definition. Oops...

Concerning Wywern's definition it is not a definition of cheating, it is suggestion of a definition of a part of the concept of cheating. However I don't agree with it. Since the host has the normal advantage of not getting lag I believe it is not per se wrong to accept that the clients sometimes gets benefits from lag. The best would be if the sum for each would be zero. Thus each situation must be considered and evaluated and not deemed to be unfair just like that.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

What about lag orders? When you've got a crucial leader like Blucher who's down to 5k and Napoleon or whoever is chasing him with a 300k army, do you wait until the battle begins to begin a retreat, so as not to use lag to your advantage, or do you spam your retreat orders like a maniac, so that your orders will arrive just as the battle starts?

Heh, I haven't thought about that one. I will use it against you next time we meet at the battlefield and I am in need of it

If I remember it

Am I a cheater or am I just smart...

I wish Jarkko was here to tell. Our ethical president.

 

[unmerged(27108)]

He-he. I just waited for this, the 2nd of your statements. You know Balinus, the host has the advantage of not getting lag (which often is an advantage). If you are the host and I am not and I lag and you kill my general in battle because I do not get my retreat order in quick enough, because of the lag, and at the same time you in another battle get away because you do not lag, then you are cheating according to your definition. Oops...

Concerning Wywern's definition it is not a definition of cheating, it is suggestion of a definition of a part of the concept of cheating. However I don't agree with it. Since the host has the normal advantage of not getting lag I believe it is not per se wrong to accept that the clients sometimes gets benefits from lag. The best would be if the sum for each would be zero. Thus each situation must be considered and evaluated and not deemed to be unfair just like that.

Not bad, there is some truth in that indeed.

But in my head, little tricks like that spoils my fun. But understand me correctly : if someone does that, I really don't care. If they want to sell their soul, it's not my business. What I like is a fair fight.

Lag is a technical issue that, hopefully, can be improved. Lag-something is a moral issue that some prople can't improve due to weakness.

Probably that those people can't stand to lose. I grown up in a big family with a lot of brothers and sisters. We learned to lose some and win some and that in the end, those concepts (win-lose) was rather uninteresting when judging of our fun. Only laugh and challenge mattered.

in my humble opinion, of course.

 

[Frank XIV]

"Le bien, le mal
Ça fait couler des larmes
Ça nous rend végétal
On passe toujours des mains blanches aux mains sales
Tout est bien qui finit mal"

Ah its so poetic... there's mine


Un beaume sur ses blessures
Profitons-en pour être moral
Ça laggait mon général
Il y en aura une autre aventure

 

[unmerged(27108)]

Ah its so poetic... there's mine


Un beaume sur ses blessures
Profitons-en pour être moral
Ça laggait mon général
Il y en aura une autre aventure

:rofl:

 

[Slargos]

He-he. I just waited for this, the 2nd of your statements. You know Balinus, the host has the advantage of not getting lag (which often is an advantage). If you are the host and I am not and I lag and you kill my general in battle because I do not get my retreat order in quick enough, because of the lag, and at the same time you in another battle get away because you do not lag, then you are cheating according to your definition. Oops...

Concerning Wywern's definition it is not a definition of cheating, it is suggestion of a definition of a part of the concept of cheating. However I don't agree with it. Since the host has the normal advantage of not getting lag I believe it is not per se wrong to accept that the clients sometimes gets benefits from lag. The best would be if the sum for each would be zero. Thus each situation must be considered and evaluated and not deemed to be unfair just like that.

This is not the first time this objection has been raised.

I counter with the fact that the host who is also usually the GM has to put in a lot of work for the game, and lag-free gaming can easily be seen as his reward for this.

Thus, lag-exploiting is still gaining undue advantages. Back to you, Danny.

In all fairness, Daniel, and this even you have to admit; the host-lag issue is one we cannot avoid. The host isn't intentionally grabbing an advantage. Lag merchants for instance, easily cancels any advantage the host has by being lag-free. Trying to trade during the days of lag merchanting while I was the host 99% of the time was ridiculous.

I believe you've argued that lag-merchanting should not be illegal. Not a very consistent position you're holding there.

PS. Stop your underhanded attacks on Jarkko. You may think they're clever, but they're just making you look worse.

---------------

Good thinking on the edits, Ryo. Now someone will have to write a "savefile integrity parser" to make sure the host doesn't cheat. :rofl:

I wish for a world where people would realize the error of their own cheating and not have to be told/threatened to stop. :wacko:

 

[ForzaA]

Those tactics aren't the ones we complain about.

And that isn't what I said, either..

What I SAID is that these tactics receive no *attention* because everyone's jumping on the lag

 

[unmerged(10894)]

I am afriad that I have found the most ways to exploit lag with my experience of it. Not that I use them on ethical grounds... but been there, done that. Gets sort of boring, although I suppose some people will do whatever possible and that's when it becomes dangerous.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

I counter with the fact that the host who is also usually the GM has to put in a lot of work for the game, and lag-free gaming can easily be seen as his reward for this.

Thus, lag-exploiting is still gaining undue advantages. Back to you, Danny.

The fact that there are other drawbacks with being host does not mean that the sum automatically ends up negative for the host. Look at the whole picture and then judge what should be done to reach an equilibrium.

In all fairness, Daniel, and this even you have to admit; the host-lag issue is one we cannot avoid. The host isn't intentionally grabbing an advantage.

Yes of course Slargos.

I believe you've argued that lag-merchanting should not be illegal. Not a very consistent position you're holding there.

I don't remember. I may have on the ground that you should try to avoid having rules you cannot check (at least not without a lot of work). But it is academic now after Johan eliminated the lag merchant possibility.

PS. Stop your underhanded attacks on Jarkko. You may think they're clever, but they're just making you look worse.

Have you been drinking now again Slargos? I have not attacked Jarkko, not even intended to do so. It's your interpretation skill that tricks you

 

[Hive]

The greatest tool against hackers is EX-HACKERS!
The greatest tool against con artists is EX-CON-ARTISTS!

Wake up and smell the lag.

Wouldnt it be better for people to know how the tricks work so that.. (a) they can be alert for it and (b) they can preemptively ban it?

No, not really. It would be better if the few people who discover these things are responsible enough to keep quiet about it.

You think this is cheating? Oh my friends you have no idea how naughty the bad boys can be! This is exploiting. Cheating is host-editing-save-file. And I am not talking primitive edits, boys. I can give you cheats that are virtually undetectable. Here is an example:

<example>

Oh yes, editing a save is easy and will in most cases go undetected. There are tons of ways to cheat with the savegame. And that's why it's important to only play with hosts and GMs you trust.

Being an experienced modder, I can even tell you about ways to cheat that are even harder to detect and unknown to the vast majority of the players. But unlike you, I don't want to encourage weak minds...

I don't get your attitude, Ryoken. You are like "Sure, I'm the one who published a recipe for a dirty bomb on my homepage - but it's not *my* fault that therorists us it! I merely put the recipe there so people can tell the therorists not to do so in advance"; and I definately disagree.

Dont complain about cheating. Learn about cheating and then develop a response. I am going out on a limb to share this knowledge, so dont blow back in my face like a dickhole. Dont kill the messenger. Listen to the message and make your own decision about how to respond to it.

Don't complain about cheating, you say? And why exactly is it that we shouldn't do that?