Raginhood said:
We don't have the time/money/resources to do multiplayer right now, so how is boycotting going to get you multiplayer? I'm just very curious about how that logic works?
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We don't have the time/money/resources to do multiplayer right now, so how is boycotting going to get you multiplayer? I'm just very curious about how that logic works?
What a great idea "raginhood"! A game done by two guys in their spare time comes out that many people are calling the best civ war sim ever, but they don't yet have time to do multi-player. Your response...Let's kill this game now before they get around to putting multi-player in.
With strageic thinking like that, I can't wait till they get multi-player put in. It will be a pleasure to kick your virtual rear end.
With strageic thinking like that, I can't wait till they get multi-player put in. It will be a pleasure to kick your virtual rear end.
I agree to a point but if we do not support the product we will never see a MP Civil War game again probably for years.....Try to convince them to do it earlier.....they will if they have the sales.ricker79 said:
A game made to play...is not one made to design
I'm a cagey bastard...and don't tread anywhere lightly. But in my day I have read, played, and made history. If you want a feel for what history is like--and what it is like to make it, then you won't make the mistake of judging TC2M by the soup de jour of the Ridlin crowd whose first check box on the quality of a game is whether or not it has "multi-player". There is no "someday" or combination of resources that will make TC2M--as a game-- better by interjecting into it the type of folks I've personally played(?) against in games like Day of Defeat, or BF:1942, or Napoleon's Greatest Battles: Austerlitz--click monkeys all (love the leapin' lizard scenes I've seen of folks tryin' to avoid stoppin' a vitual bullet...nice). Fun to beat the band, I'll admit--just like a slinky...but I'm not going to stand for the ol' "it needs MP for realism" argument from the same crowd.
TC2M stands alone as is; it is as a GREAT game period. All else is noise from the Monopoly board of wannabe on-line "soldiers" who wouldn't know the smell of one if their computer screen attracted nose smelt one (day three is when the aroma emerges...). Prolly bitch about chess too. Learn the rules, play by the rules, win by the rules--STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE RULES cuz yer Mom screwed you up by enrollin' you in T-Ball. There's a Game ON and it's a good one to play. TC2M is multi-player. Pan left, pan right...the AI is playin' the friendly unit next to you. It may not always help you...but I'm sure most the time...you don't help it either...it's just the AI...there is no bigger picture...it's all about you. On that note, I'm going to hit my favorite multi-player button...the Leapin' Lizard while tossing a stick grenade for height and distance... Vegas.
v/r
Wrangler
I'm a cagey bastard...and don't tread anywhere lightly. But in my day I have read, played, and made history. If you want a feel for what history is like--and what it is like to make it, then you won't make the mistake of judging TC2M by the soup de jour of the Ridlin crowd whose first check box on the quality of a game is whether or not it has "multi-player". There is no "someday" or combination of resources that will make TC2M--as a game-- better by interjecting into it the type of folks I've personally played(?) against in games like Day of Defeat, or BF:1942, or Napoleon's Greatest Battles: Austerlitz--click monkeys all (love the leapin' lizard scenes I've seen of folks tryin' to avoid stoppin' a vitual bullet...nice). Fun to beat the band, I'll admit--just like a slinky...but I'm not going to stand for the ol' "it needs MP for realism" argument from the same crowd.
TC2M stands alone as is; it is as a GREAT game period. All else is noise from the Monopoly board of wannabe on-line "soldiers" who wouldn't know the smell of one if their computer screen attracted nose smelt one (day three is when the aroma emerges...). Prolly bitch about chess too. Learn the rules, play by the rules, win by the rules--STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE RULES cuz yer Mom screwed you up by enrollin' you in T-Ball. There's a Game ON and it's a good one to play. TC2M is multi-player. Pan left, pan right...the AI is playin' the friendly unit next to you. It may not always help you...but I'm sure most the time...you don't help it either...it's just the AI...there is no bigger picture...it's all about you. On that note, I'm going to hit my favorite multi-player button...the Leapin' Lizard while tossing a stick grenade for height and distance... Vegas.
v/r
Wrangler
Wrangler said:
Good points Wrangler. TC2M is a revolutionary game and I fully understand the resource limits of MadMinute. That being said I must point out I have never seen an AI (have been wargaming for 20+ years) compare to an experienced wargamer. Never going to happen for some time I believe. Hence to maximize playability and realism I would argue MP is a must for some of the most dedicated wargamers out there. No true wargamer would ever play a click fest game RTS game
Mind you TC2M's AI does seem quite good in the demo....(for an AI) but I suspect If I played you it would be an very uninteresting game :rofl:
Just my two cents........
Question though I must admit I have not played at the highest level of difficulty yet with the first release. How does the AI play out. I heard it is quite good. Is the AI cheating in any way as most AI's do when set at the harder levels. Is the human player handicapped in someway?
Cheers............
As I understand it, at the levels above normal, the AI gets more troops of better quality in the existing number of units. In addition the AI plays with more agression. There are no other changes beyond these.
ETF,ETF said:
I hope your prediction about AI "...never going to happen for some time..." holds true--at least as far as TC2M is concerned...cuz it would ruin the history of the thing if it were not so. Here's why I say that...
I must point out that in my 38+ years of wargaming (which includes 3 years as a sailor and 27 as a soldier serving in positions from tank platoon leader through special staff officer to a four-star theater commander in Korea...and all the operations jobs in between) that I don't believe in the notion that experienced wargamers hold positions of authority in the ranks of the army--now or in 1861-1865 (or pick your favorite period).
What attracted me to this game system initially was nothing more than a desire to see if I could mod it to do Napoleonics. And now? Well that idea has fallen by the wayside as I marvel at how the AI (which is neither friendly nor enemy) replicates the reality of the "bureaucracy", inertia, and vitality of command in the American Civil War.
Hopefully you as an experienced wargamer can see the point here. I postulate that I can play you and have a great wargame experience...but likewise, I submit that neither you nor I can replicate for the other what it was like to face an American Civil War opponent better than the TC2M AI...will you be "stupid" for me on purpose so I can enjoy the experience of Burnside's Bridge? Pickett's Charge? Marye's Heights? No. Nor would I do it willingly for you.
The beauty of the hundreds of tiny design decisions made by MMG is that they all morph into a sharp representation of the reality of the Civil War battlefield. This game is unique for me in its ability to do this; putting you or me into the equation via multi-player is a distraction from the historical reality of it--I don't want you interfering in my experience of this environment with the maximizations of clever deployments and maneuvers and cunning ploys that only an experienced wargamer can do. I want nothing more than the reality of the Civil War and the Take Command series does that so dang well...my love for the Napoleonic era has...dare I say...taken a back seat.
O.K. Here's what I didn't say. I didn't say multi-player is a bad thing. I didn't say it should not be pursued by MMG--they want to do it--and they want to do it right. What I did say was, "but I'm not going to stand for the ol' "it needs MP for realism" argument from the same crowd." Between us we have 58+ years of wargaming experience...that's prolly enough for each of us to figure out what the other means and why. When MP happens, I'll take you up on your kind offer to combat...I know you will kick my butt...so you will win in the end.
I would just like to see TC2M win for what it is--a great interpretation of history that is a good game too. We need to stop and judge it on its own merits and uniqueness (and all that is implied by those two words)--there are bushels of oranges out there...with various levels of plumpness, orange-a-ninity, naval-less peel densities, and of course...the ubiquitous mandatory screening criteria of having the anointed Star-Kist label from Multi-player, Florida...but TC2M is an apple--ya dig?
Bottomline? I argue for both capabilities. If it's nut cuttin' time? I fall full square on the side of the core competency of the Take Command Engine--The AI Opponent and Peer. Cuz it alone is the best replication of the command environment of the American Civil War...bar none...period. And I ain't whistlin' Dixie for MMG--This is how I feel to the bone. Adding Multi-player just makes it another orange...which is a fruit that generally makes good juice...but isn't for everybody cuz there are low-pulpers, pulpers, and multi-pulpers in the OJ community.
v/r
Wrangler
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Hear! Hear!
One of the most eloquent defenses of a game yet written!
One of the most eloquent defenses of a game yet written!
Wrangler said:
Hi Wrangler good points indeed.
I was joking about the one on one game....I think I wouldn't stand a chance playing a veteran player like yourself. I find the AI challenging to a point still even after playing the first release since it came out in retail.
If I follow your point (I read it quick and only once as I'm at work ) you enjoy the AI since it adds a sense of historical incompetence to the battle to reflect the historical Union command structure. Interesting, I never thought about that.
If you like Napoleonic warfare I would suggest HistWar's (http://www.battlefront.com/products/les_grog/index.html) new project to be released soon. It has some really interesting MP and SP variations. Look at the features section (if you haven't already ). The operational maps can be quite large 30x22.5 km. At extreme FOW & MP (Up to 6) you can have a complete command structure of humans. These MP players can take orders from other MP players and have to constantly converse (through runners/riders) with their overall commander of the army. You (assuming your the Army Commander) decide what reinforcements to give to what AI/humans. You only get to see the battle field from your perspective (not theirs......well unless you ride to their location or read into their messages they send) etc. Really adds that command delay even among humans. Not to mention the pettiness of your right wing commander whining that he should have the Old Guard immediately assigned to his wing etc. You can slow down the time parameters to 1 sec = 1 sec so not to worry about those stupid monkey click fests.
Looks really good. Also a small company basically 1-2 guys. As with TC2M a excellent purchase to a veteran serviceman and wargamer like yourself.
Cheers
I was joking about the one on one game....I think I wouldn't stand a chance playing a veteran player like yourself. I find the AI challenging to a point still even after playing the first release since it came out in retail.
If I follow your point (I read it quick and only once as I'm at work
) you enjoy the AI since it adds a sense of historical incompetence to the battle to reflect the historical Union command structure. Interesting, I never thought about that. If you like Napoleonic warfare I would suggest HistWar's (http://www.battlefront.com/products/les_grog/index.html) new project to be released soon. It has some really interesting MP and SP variations. Look at the features section (if you haven't already
). The operational maps can be quite large 30x22.5 km. At extreme FOW & MP (Up to 6) you can have a complete command structure of humans. These MP players can take orders from other MP players and have to constantly converse (through runners/riders) with their overall commander of the army. You (assuming your the Army Commander) decide what reinforcements to give to what AI/humans. You only get to see the battle field from your perspective (not theirs......well unless you ride to their location or read into their messages they send) etc. Really adds that command delay even among humans. Not to mention the pettiness of your right wing commander whining that he should have the Old Guard immediately assigned to his wing etc. You can slow down the time parameters to 1 sec = 1 sec so not to worry about those stupid monkey click fests.Looks really good. Also a small company basically 1-2 guys. As with TC2M a excellent purchase to a veteran serviceman and wargamer like yourself.
Cheers
Indeed. I've had my eye on this one ever since it was announced. If you are familiar with Jean-Michel Mathé's earlier work, you know that he has been building towards this Magnum Opus for a long time. I wish him the very best this time around. It's looking very good.ETF said:If you like Napoleonic warfare I would suggest HistWar's (http://www.battlefront.com/products/les_grog/index.html) new project to be released soon. It has some really interesting MP and SP variations. Look at the features section (if you haven't already
v/r
Wrangler
Hi 1st post here
Myself and many other wargamers over at KG have just discovered these gems. Many of us are buying the game as we speak. It is a great game (at least from the demo)
We are very bummed that there is no Multiplayer though.
None of us are twitch bunnies we are mostly mid 30s and up and very serious
history buffs. PLEASE If at all possible do an upgrade or even purchasable Multiplayer add on.
Great work , Multiplayer would pay off in spades as this is truly an awesome
product.
Please stop by and visit our site we are Serious Wargamers
http://www.kampfgruppe.us
Myself and many other wargamers over at KG have just discovered these gems. Many of us are buying the game as we speak. It is a great game (at least from the demo)
We are very bummed that there is no Multiplayer though.
None of us are twitch bunnies we are mostly mid 30s and up and very serious
history buffs. PLEASE If at all possible do an upgrade or even purchasable Multiplayer add on.
Great work , Multiplayer would pay off in spades as this is truly an awesome
product.
Please stop by and visit our site we are Serious Wargamers
http://www.kampfgruppe.us
Hey KG, I checked out your site, it's pretty good.
Here is a link to the MMG site, there is alot of info and screenshots about both games on the forums there:
http://www.madminutegames.com/
maybe you can post this link on the Kampfgruppe forums.
Here is a link to the MMG site, there is alot of info and screenshots about both games on the forums there:
http://www.madminutegames.com/
maybe you can post this link on the Kampfgruppe forums.
KG_sspoom said:
No one has ever complained that this is a "Twitch Bunny" game. It is not an RTS. If anything, RTS people complain that it's too slow because they are looking for an RTS.
@Norb I wasnt saying it was a "Twitch game" I really like the pace.I was refering to the KG guys who are mostly hard core gamers, but would really like to see this game have Multiplayer cause we dont really like most RTS twitch or click fest type games.
I want to route some of my Texas friends Texas units :rofl: Sorry if you took it the wrong way not meant as a slight, you guys have done a great job with a genre that hasnt been done well(IMHO) in the past.
Thanks
Steve
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ricker79 said:
Requoted for truth couldn't agree more. This leaves Sid Meiers Gettysburg/Antietam still top of the line for a complete tactical wargame of civil war battles. From my standpoint it has cost the developers over 3000 sales among my group of friends.
Your TROLL appendage speaks volumes about the potential for accuracy of your "3,000 friends" statistic. You gonna draw that hog-leg drifter...or are you jus gonna stand there and bleed?Raginhood said:
klas_knas said:
Would be nice but I don't think its that simple...........but we could always hope.
I think its been mentioned (unless its changed) that the MP option would NOT be available until the 4th release probably ~2007. Maybe with all the TC2M sales Norb and Adam can afford to go full time programming and include it in the third release. Probably though too late