My purity run just proved to me that the xp gain for leaders needs to change

[Swarm lover]

So i played a while back a purity bio ascension focused purely on leader xp gain. I had easily around 200% gain probably would have gotten more if the memory vault building wasnt bugged. The leaders with "active" gains worked fine like the admirals leading fleets and scientists exploring.
However, even with that xp gain it took around 50-60 years for a leader to go from level 4 to level 8 just by being assigned to the gal com. Sure my guys can live for over 400 years but by the time you get the 200% gain you are around mid to end game so taking an extra 50 to 60 years to get to level 8 is just far too long.

Either the base xp gained passively needs to be increased or there needs to be a means of "adding" to the base xp gain. Like traits that add +2xp per month or stuff like that. After all 200% of 5 is a mere 10 xp per month. Compared to the thousands that is needed this is nothing.
Honestly outside of the scientist, fleet leaders and council focused classes i havent seen any destiny traits of governor type classes and unlike scientists and admirals officials have zero "active duty" they can do beyond be on council or rule a planet which the scientists and fleet admirals can also do on top of their active sources.

I agree in the beginning the xp gain was far too easy with the tradition that gave xp to ALL leaders before if you knew what you were doing, now only the councilors. However, feel like the devs went far too hard in the opposite direction. (Feel the same way for vassalage play)

 

[Metallichydra]

Officials have basically no way of getting xp.
All classes get 5 xp per month when assigned to a planet or ship or anything else, and then an additional 5 if they are on the council.

Leaders - Stellaris Wiki

stellaris.paradoxwikis.com

Then, in addition, scientists get 10 xp for surveying a planet (2 months worth of xp for non-councilors) and varying amounts for completing archaeology sites and anomalies (Some from the act of doing these things, but also just random events awarding xp), commanders get xp for fighting battles (5 xp + some for each ship part of the battle), but officials get nothing.
Scientists also have more XP boosts, such as the scientist trait that boost scientist xp gain, and I believe the transcendant learning ascension perk grants xp bonus specifically to scientists.

 

[Swarm lover]

Officials have basically no way of getting xp.
All classes get 5 xp per month when assigned to a planet or ship or anything else, and then an additional 5 if they are on the council.

Leaders - Stellaris Wiki

stellaris.paradoxwikis.com

Then, in addition, scientists get 10 xp for surveying a planet (2 months worth of xp for non-councilors) and varying amounts for completing archaeology sites and anomalies (Some from the act of doing these things, but also just random events awarding xp), commanders get xp for fighting battles (5 xp + some for each ship part of the battle), but officials get nothing.
Scientists also have more XP boosts, such as the scientist trait that boost scientist xp gain, and I believe the transcendant learning ascension perk grants xp bonus specifically to scientists.

Exactly, officials need some kind of active task and in general leaders that are assigned to the gal com, federation or governor ship of a planet or sector need a much larger income of experience. I already proposed a while back a solution i feel could work without being too broken that works not only in early and mid game but i also feel end game too. (Probably with some number modifications)

But yeah i have yet to see a single governor focused official or leader or fed or gal com reach level 8 in a respectable time frame. Heck early game its impossible to have a long enough lifespan to even get there.

 

[DarkHelmet110985]

Just wondering if you used Cloning's Backup Clone Trait, Spatial Mastery and the like because if you're able to get Effective Leader level into the high 10's, if not 20's, you'll be firing Agenda's off so often that you'll run out of Agenda's to run because **AGENDA COOLDOWN** needs to be reduced(Parliamentary Systems and/or Shadow Council would be optimal Civics for this). Anyways if you fire off enough Agenda's, you'll gain adequate XP and for those on your Council at level 10, simply pause the game and swap Leaders in that you wish to get the XP boost.

As for the passive XP gain... yeah I agree 100%. You can have +200% XP and that only translates into monthly XP going from 5 -> 15. It's why Statecraft is S-Tier because it's almost mandatory to take to get Leaders to level 10 via its Agenda perk.

PS: It's theoretically possible to get a Ruler to have an effective leader level of like 27 with Biotic Dominion.

 

[Swarm lover]

Just wondering if you used Cloning's Backup Clone Trait, Spatial Mastery and the like because if you're able to get Effective Leader level into the high 10's, if not 20's, you'll be firing Agenda's off so often that you'll run out of Agenda's to run because **AGENDA COOLDOWN** needs to be reduced(Parliamentary Systems and/or Shadow Council would be optimal Civics for this). Anyways if you fire off enough Agenda's, you'll gain adequate XP and for those on your Council at level 10, simply pause the game and swap Leaders in that you wish to get the XP boost.

As for the passive XP gain... yeah I agree 100%. You can have +200% XP and that only translates into monthly XP going from 5 -> 15. It's why Statecraft is S-Tier because it's almost mandatory to take to get Leaders to level 10 via its Agenda perk.

PS: It's theoretically possible to get a Ruler to have an effective leader level of like 27 with Biotic Dominion.

I havent tried cloning honestly i feel like there needs to be more agendas rather than reducing cooldown and if the spamming of agendas for that xp is the only way to get governor focused leaders to level 8 by cycling them in and out of the council then to me thats a huge failure on the system itself.

 

[Metallichydra]

PS: It's theoretically possible to get a Ruler to have an effective leader level of like 27 with Biotic Dominion.

Apparently if you steal an evolutionary predators pop and makes a leader out of it, then gets that leader elected in an election and then switches to imperial authority, you can get something along the lines of 50 effective leader levels.

 

[Swarm lover]

Apparently if you steal an evolutionary predators pop and makes a leader out of it, then gets that leader elected in an election and then switches to imperial authority, you can get something along the lines of 50 effective leader levels.

Can we please stay on topic, i get that effective leader level can get crazy but im talking about destiny traits and such. Like there is that spirtualist one that turns pops latently psionic every year and gives 25% rescources from psionic pops. Big issue is that 1 good luck having a leader live long enough to get to level 8 without cheesing it, 2 by the time you gonna get it you will easily have started the psionic ascension and thus all pops are latently psionic or just done the entire ascension.

 

[Metallichydra]

Can we please stay on topic, i get that effective leader level can get crazy but im talking about destiny traits and such. Like there is that spirtualist one that turns pops latently psionic every year and gives 25% rescources from psionic pops. Big issue is that 1 good luck having a leader live long enough to get to level 8 without cheesing it, 2 by the time you gonna get it you will easily have started the psionic ascension and thus all pops are latently psionic or just done the entire ascension.

I don't think giving the latent psionic trait is supposed to be the main benefit, rather just a way for genetically ascended empires to make use of the trait.

 

[Swarm lover]

I don't think giving the latent psionic trait is supposed to be the main benefit, rather just a way for genetically ascended empires to make use of the trait.

in the wiki says you cant get the trait if you picked a non psionic ascension.

 

[Metallichydra]

Very strange then.

 

[Swarm lover]

Very strange then.

I also go that the latent psionic pop thing wasnt the main benefit but just that the devs clearly havent thought things through. They could remove that extra effect and nothing would change. Unless psionic trait gets completely reworked in the dlc.

 

[Metallichydra]

I also go that the latent psionic pop thing wasnt the main benefit but just that the devs clearly havent thought things through. They could remove that extra effect and nothing would change. Unless psionic trait gets completely reworked in the dlc.

The wiki

Common leader traits - Stellaris Wiki

stellaris.paradoxwikis.com

Says that it's available to those who have not yet pursued a non-psionic ascension path, so you should be able to get it and then later genetically ascend.

 

[Swarm lover]

The wiki

Says that it's available to those who have not yet pursued a non-psionic ascension path, so you should be able to get it and then later genetically ascend.

Still doesnt solve the problem since you will have to hold off genetic ascension and unless you cycle them in and out of the council with the statecraft tradition you are not gonna get that trait unless its the very end game if you are lucky.

Point is overall the devs really need to take another look at the passive xp gain of the leaders who dont have an active xp source to use.

 

[Thiend]

The base rate is far too low. In addition, council positions and active positions not being mutually exclusive provides a way to massively increase gain (...to something still overall too low) and probably shouldn't.

The xp gain is scaled to assume lifespan boosts (maybe justifiable, it's a reward for leader-related buffs) and a much longer game (completely unjustifiable, it just doesn't last that long).

I think even now Statecraft is too good for council xp gain, although what is taken from it should be put into the baseline for council positions. Leadership Conditioning went from mandatory to worthless, as largely is the entire Aptitude tree. It needs to be overall stronger and within a stronger focus. Regular, non-council leaders need a solid increase in base xp as well, although I'd like to also make it mutually exclusive with council positions. It's easier to give both a reasonable level if they don't stack. Governor positions in particular provide laughable amounts of xp.

Leaders reaching high level at all without xp or lifespan buffs isn't a problem. They'll spend less time at that level before dying than leaders that have one or both.

 

[DarkHelmet110985]

I havent tried cloning honestly i feel like there needs to be more agendas rather than reducing cooldown and if the spamming of agendas for that xp is the only way to get governor focused leaders to level 8 by cycling them in and out of the council then to me thats a huge failure on the system itself.

Agreed but with respect to Cloning's Backup Clone Trait, all it requires is taking Biochemical Composure on 3rd Flex Pick. Basically, go Purity -> Purity -> Cloning and you'll get an effective Leader level boost of +3 from Purity's first flex pick and Backup Clone Trait that you gain from Cloning's 3rd Flex. Do note that Backup Clone Trait only provides +2 Effective Leader skill while that Leader is still on their first life. The moment they die, the Leader is reincarnated but the Trait is replaced with Clone Leader malus trait. Only way to mitigate its effects is to take Purity's first flex pick and take a Cloning Authority(ideally Democratic) to mitigate the Lifespan/Leader XP malus. Keep them alive though, and you'll enjoy +3 Leader skill for the rest of the game and that +3 Leader skill applies to all posts: Governor's(and production boosts), Science ships(Survey Speed, Anomaly skill, Dig Site skill, Astral Rift skill), Admirals(Bonus Fire rate, additional Army Damage for Generals) and Councilors(Councilor post perks + Agenda Speed boost). If only Councilor Traits scaled by Leader level... then this setup would truly show its power.

Yet if you take Spatial mastery Trait, Backup Clone Trait and Purity's first Flex pick, you'll have an effective Leader skill boost of +4. Tack on Biotic Dominion that provides 0.5 effective skill per Purity point(I can feasibly get 14 here) for +7 and now you're at effective skill level of 21 for Heir + Ruler. Philosopher King, Vaults of Knowledge and w/e Civic you want for 3rd(I recommend Distinguished Admiralty and you'll see why shortly) yields an effective level of 15 for Councilors(22 for Heir) while Ruler is 27. That means you'll get 0.25 x 27 or 6.75 boost to Power Projection(which is nuts). Now why Distinguished Admiralty? Well, the Heir can hit level 22 so if it rolls Commander, it can yield +22% Naval Capacity and +1100 Starting Ship Experience from its Councilor post. That's insane folks. Another possibility is to go Xenophile with Free Haven Civic and get -77% Empire Size from Districts(which with other sources can completely wipe it out).

As for Evolutionary Predators, they don't benefit from Biotic Dominion with respect to Effective Leader level or other perks since they have to be from the Imperial Bloodline to benefit(which they most certainly won't be) and Effective Leader level boost only applies to Leader + Heir(so the idea of +50 Effective Leader level from abducting their pops is ludicrous). Therefore, the true benefit of Biotic Dominion is the insane boost to Lifespan(at 90% with Purity opener) and Leader XP gain to go with Influence from Power Projection(Ruler) and boost to Councilor Post that Heir will hold.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

I feel like leaders in general would work much better if they were tuned to hit level 10 around 40 years after being hired, with leaders starting at 35-50 instead of 25-45, and (potentially) retiring much earlier.

You could still do the single generation thing if you started with Venerable, Lithoids, or Spare Organs, but everyone else would churn through multiple generations (until repeatables made them eventually live forever so that you don't have to worry about it anymore).

So many elements of the system feel like they're tuned to account or leaders regularly retiring/dying and being replaced, and leaders getting veteran/destiny traits fairly early in the game (Frontier Spirit and Xenocataloguer/basically all Explorer veteran traits).

---

That is: triple base XP rates, then cut the initial useful leader lifespan in half (to start), and you would actually get to use funerals, Explorer traits, Destiny traits, etc.

 

[ParanoiaMod]

The fact that Officials have nothing they actually do but sit in place has always bothered me.

In fact, I do not really get why Officials and Envoys do not get combined into one special Leader Class, where Officials do all the Envoy stuff as well, and the only difference between Officials and other Leader Classes is that the Official cap is a hard cap, instead of a soft cap.

Then Officials have more stuff to do (among things they can already do) to boost their XP:
Officials can oversee Planets.
Official can do First Contacts for XP (and their Level can make it easier).
Officials can oversee Spy rings, and get good XP for Missions.
Officials can be sent to oversee relations (of both directions) with other Empires.
Officials can be sent to Galactic Community (and should definitely get good XP there).
Officials can be sent to oversee Federation relations (and should get good XP there).

This game does not do much anything with Officials. And Envoys. To the extent I do not get why these two things can not be squished together.

 

[Swarm lover]

The base rate is far too low. In addition, council positions and active positions not being mutually exclusive provides a way to massively increase gain (...to something still overall too low) and probably shouldn't.

The xp gain is scaled to assume lifespan boosts (maybe justifiable, it's a reward for leader-related buffs) and a much longer game (completely unjustifiable, it just doesn't last that long).

I think even now Statecraft is too good for council xp gain, although what is taken from it should be put into the baseline for council positions. Leadership Conditioning went from mandatory to worthless, as largely is the entire Aptitude tree. It needs to be overall stronger and within a stronger focus. Regular, non-council leaders need a solid increase in base xp as well, although I'd like to also make it mutually exclusive with council positions. It's easier to give both a reasonable level if they don't stack. Governor positions in particular provide laughable amounts of xp.

Leaders reaching high level at all without xp or lifespan buffs isn't a problem. They'll spend less time at that level before dying than leaders that have one or both.

100% agree on the point of of councilors still being able to go do oother jobs rather than be "stuck" on the capital. Same regarding the game length not meshing well with the average game length, i always play default mid and end game dates about 200 years of gameplay so having a leader that takes over 50 years to get to level 8 is something that ought to be rectified.

I do agree that councilors should be relagated to one "job" heck would love to see them being vulnerable (ruler too) if the capital gets attacked or cracked etc. (Always felt odd how leaders never die from planetary combat or ruler upon war loss outside of FE wars.

Honestly for governors i feel like the xp they get should scale with the size of the population they cover (follow sector rules where they get only half from planets they dont directly control).

 

[Swarm lover]

I feel like leaders in general would work much better if they were tuned to hit level 10 around 40 years after being hired, with leaders starting at 35-50 instead of 25-45, and (potentially) retiring much earlier.

You could still do the single generation thing if you started with Venerable, Lithoids, or Spare Organs, but everyone else would churn through multiple generations (until repeatables made them eventually live forever so that you don't have to worry about it anymore).

So many elements of the system feel like they're tuned to account or leaders regularly retiring/dying and being replaced, and leaders getting veteran/destiny traits fairly early in the game (Frontier Spirit and Xenocataloguer/basically all Explorer veteran traits).

---

That is: triple base XP rates, then cut the initial useful leader lifespan in half (to start), and you would actually get to use funerals, Explorer traits, Destiny traits, etc.

Honestly wish that having a very long life span added more. The venerable trait mentions how their long life commands "respect" but really is just hot air. I feel like a "normal" base leader should reach level 8 or a bit below by the end of their life if they been working all the time but wouldn't touch the starting age.

I do agree on the issue of some destiny traits clearly being tuned towards early game but are impossible to reach in time. Just more proof the devs need to go take another look.

 

[Ikael]

Yep, XP gain on "passive" roles is pitiful. And the fact that the Aptitude tech tree got nerfed into oblivion, along with all XP growing traits, did not do leader builds any favors.

In the absence of officials getting some "field role" as ambassadors, Trascendental AP giving a passive XP gain per month to all leaders, regardless of their appointment, instead of giving an XP % boost, would be a good start.

And they need to entirely remodel the aptitude Tree so it could be somewhat better at leader builds than Politics (imagine that!).