My summary feedback on the China week

[zeruosi]

Since it's too late today, I'll share my partial feedback on the map for now. The map is sourced from a Chinese - language journal, so it may present some reading difficulties.

Starting with the regional map: while I'm puzzled by the Korean Kingdom's eight unusually small divisions, that's not the core issue.
The primary concerns stem from the excessively large territories of Huguang and Nan Zhili. While I understand these follow Ming Dynasty administrative divisions, their disproportionate scale on the map prompts my suggestion to adopt the Qing Dynasty's division method. Specifically:

• Reconfigure regional boundaries for better visual balance, particularly addressing:
  • Guangdong's enclaves, which appear aesthetically awkward
  • The 'tail' protruding from North Zhili
• Redistribute territories to reflect historical claims:
  • Guizhou should incorporate parts of Sichuan (currently appearing 'bitten off')
  • Sichuan should annex the easternmost section of Kang (same rationale)

Regarding Liaodong: the name is misleading since it actually includes Liaoxi. 'Liaoning' would be more geographically accurate than 'Liaodong'.

For the Southern Gobi: as it spans two distinct geographic units, I recommend splitting it into，A new 'Hetao' region, a combined zone with Shanxi's 'Houset' (posterior Ordos) and Shaanxi's Ningxia region

Proposed New Regions:

1. Hetao (historically defined as the entire Loess Plateau north of Ordos, including Ningxia and modern Hetao)
2. Hubei (modern provincial name)
3. Jiangsu (modern provincial name), with alternative: Huaihai (derived from Huai River & Yellow Sea)
4. Retain Nan Zhili (status quo option)
5. Hunan (modern provincial name)

Regarding the agricultural land map: multiple users have noted the insufficient farmland allocation for China compared to Europe. Given that China and India—two demographic giants—should support historically documented population scales, additional farmland is warranted.

Key adjustments:

• Northern China: The existing farmland distribution appears adequate, with only minor additions to the Jiaolai Plain in Shandong.
• Southern China: Significant expansions were made to cover:
  • The entirety of Hunan, Hubei, and Jiangxi provinces
  • All plains regions along the Yangtze River
  • Nanyang Basin in Henan ( The area was unaffected by the Yellow River's course changes, and it also did not experience salt-alkalization issues similar to those in the Guanzhong Plain ).

Climate Map Corrections:

1. Northern China Misclassification
   • Error: Hebei, Fen River Basin (Shanxi), and Guanzhong Plain (Shaanxi) incorrectly labeled as cold-arid.
   • Correction: These regions (600+ mm annual rainfall) belong to the semi-humidzone. The Köppen system's flaws include:
     • Overemphasis on urban heat island effects as representative of broader climates
     • Neglect of monsoonal precipitation patterns (winter droughts artificially lower classifications)
     • Arbitrary zone boundaries ignoring 5 mm rainfall differentials
2. Subtropical Zone Adjustment
   • Original Issue: DEV's misplacement of southern Henan in the subtropics.
   • Rationale for Expansion:
     • Monsoonal gradient: coastal areas are warmer/rainier than inland
     • Required northward shift of eastern subtropics (vs. continental zones)
     • New boundaries:
       • Eastern subtropics extended to southern Shandong
       • Southern Korea reclassified as subtropical

Development Map Revisions:

1. Yellow River Region Downgrade
   • Current Issue: Unjustifiably high development levels in areas of frequent Yellow River flooding (e.g., Henan floodplains).
   • Correction: Reduce development ratings to reflect:
     • Historical vulnerability to hydrological disasters
     • Disruptive sedimentation patterns
     • Infrastructure instability
2. Yangtze River Region Upgrade
   • Rationale for Enhancement:
     • Demographic concentration (historical population hubs)
     • Commercial centrality (maritime trade networks)
     • Strategic geographic position as China's economic core

Port Map Revisions:

1. Jiangsu Coastline Downgrade
   • Rationale: Entire coastline comprises muddy tidal flats, unsuitable for port construction. Should be downgraded to minimum development level.
2. Northern Shandong Upgrade
   • Justification:
     • Exempt from Yellow River sedimentation impact
     • Weihai served as Beiyang Fleet base during Qing Dynasty
   • Action: Minor elevation of port classification
3. Southeastern Shandong Upgrade
   • Opportunity: Several bays east of Qingdao offer superior natural harbor conditions. Should match Qingdao's port rating.
4. Hangzhou Port Relocation
   • Problem: Direct exposure to Qiantang River tidal bore renders it nonviable.
   • Solution:
     • Downgrade Hangzhou's port status
     • Relocate port functions to Zhoushan Archipelago (ideal natural harbor)
5. Yangtze River Delta Upgrade
   • Strategic Importance: Core economic zone from Jiangyin to Shanghai (historically and currently). Warrants comprehensive port upgrades.
6. Guangzhou Port Access
   • Current Issue: Mapped as inland city despite national significance.
   • Correction:
     • Reconnect to Pearl River network
     • Designate as open coastal port

Cultural Map Feedback:
The only discrepancy lies in Liaoning's lack of Han cultural representation. This region still hosts a significant Han population and should reflect Han cultural elements. Historically, Liaoning has been part of Han China since the Zhou Dynasty—even the Qing Dynasty acknowledged this (the Willow Palisade followed the Liaodong Great Wall's trajectory, with Han settlements confined within its boundaries).
Regarding Taiwan: I propose simplifying the cultural classification into two primary groups—the Pingpu (Plains) Indigenous Peoples and the Highland Indigenous Peoples. The outdated Portuguese designation 'Formosa' should no longer be used.

Dialect Map Critique & Revision Proposal
The map has sparked widespread ridicule across Chinese social media. Its erroneous depiction of Southern Mandarin distribution is particularly infuriating. Classifying dialects into just two Mandarin categories fundamentally violates linguistic definitions.

Revised Classification System:

1. Northern Mandarin (heavily influenced by Jurchen and Mongolian)
2. Jiaodong Mandarin
3. Central Plains Mandarin
4. Lower Yangtze Mandarin
5. Upper Yangtze Mandarin
6. Qinlong Mandarin
7. Northwest Mandarin (significantly shaped by Tangut and Mongolian)
8. Northeastern Mandarin (affected by Jurchen, Mongolian, and Khitan languages)

Religious Map Feedback:
Similar to the cultural map, Liaoning Province exhibits no traces of the Three Teachings (Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism), which is both incorrect and historically implausible.

Market Map Revisions
Similar to the regional map, certain market regions require subdivision:

1. Sichuan Basin East
   • Split Chengdu market to establish Chongqing (or Kuizhou) as an independent market center for the eastern basin.
2. Hubei-Hunan Trade Hub
   • Fragment Nanchang market into separate nodes for Wuchang, Hankou, or Hanyang—these three cities (later amalgamated into modern Wuhan) historically surpassed Nanchang in commercial significance.
3. Shandong Market Isolation
   • Detach Jinan or Qingzhou from Kaifeng market to create a dedicated Shandong trading zone, as Shandong's geographical isolation necessitates separate representation.
4. Yunnan Anomaly
   • Investigate the Kunming market enclave within Shenglong territory—is this a bug？

 

[zeruosi]

Nitan17 I know you're not one of those silent users—could you share your specific reason for clicking 'X'?

 

[SAmaster]

I knew this was coming.

 

[Aquila SPQR]

Nitan17 I know you're not one of those silent users—could you share your specific reason for clicking 'X'?

Don't worry, I have the impression he's just giving those reactions completely randomly.

 

[GastonEstBonne]

Climate Map Corrections:

Not saying you didn't take this into account but keep in mind the devs are adjusting for the different climate in 1337, so your feedback might be impressing the current climate on the past.

 

[SAmaster]

Don't worry, I have the impression he's just giving those reactions completely randomly.

I feel like he's gone out of his way to disagree with every post I've made the last week, but I figured it was just a me thing.

 

[zeruosi]

Don't worry, I have the impression he's just giving those reactions completely randomly.

That's a truly peculiar individual.

I knew this was coming.

Yes, I should be able to upload the refined version for the Ordos region tomorrow—it's disproportionately large compared to its surroundings.

Not saying you didn't take this into account but keep in mind the devs are adjusting for the different climate in 1337, so your feedback might be impressing the current climate on the past.

The northern expansion of the subtropical climate zone was initially misrepresented by the DEV team—incorrectly extending inland subtropical regions northward. My adjustment redistributes this climate band more accurately.

However, considering the ongoing Medieval Warm Period (with the Little Ice Age yet to begin), a slight northward shift beyond modern climate boundaries is geographically plausible.

I feel like he's gone out of his way to disagree with every post I've made the last week, but I figured it was just a me thing.

An utterly perplexing individual.

 

[luo]

Northern China: The existing farmland distribution appears adequate, with only minor additions to the Jiaolai Plain in Shandong.

I agree with the rest of the content, but I have a different opinion on the issue of farmland in northern China.

I think your standards are a bit too strict, even deliberately reducing the amount of farmland in northern China. But it needs to be considered that, regardless, North China has always been an important food producing region before and after the start of the game (even to modern times). If the reason for treating the north as grassland is solely based on the fact that the population of northern China was relatively smaller than that of the south in 1337, it not only does not conform to the historical situation, but also cannot accurately simulate the rapid population recovery in northern China during the Ming Dynasty.

These farmlands only lost their population during the wars of the late Yuan Dynasty and were quickly re-cultivated after the establishment of the Ming Dynasty, rather than being reclaimed.

Still in this picture, I chose an area where the soil composition has been altered by long-term crop cultivation. This means that the soil in these areas has fully adapted to agricultural cultivation and is no longer conducive to forest or grassland ecosystems.

This is a relatively strict standard, which means that areas that have been cultivated for a short period of time and areas that have not been cultivated for long enough to change the soil are not counted as farmland. Perhaps the Huai River Basin can be reduced appropriately, but in other areas, I believe it is entirely the result of strict calculations.

As for the problem of Yellow River flooding, there is a specialized natural disaster system for simulation, and it should not be assumed from the bottom that these areas do not belong to farmland, especially since there is no option to change vegetation types in EU5 (which is regrettable). Therefore, we can see that the North German region also had a certain amount of farmland in 1337 due to subsequent cultivation and development, rather than a barren forest. This is essential for historical simulation and also for gameplay.

 

[SAmaster]

That's a truly peculiar individual.

Yes, I should be able to upload the refined version for the Ordos region tomorrow—it's disproportionately large compared to its surroundings.

The northern expansion of the subtropical climate zone was initially misrepresented by the DEV team—incorrectly extending inland subtropical regions northward. My adjustment redistributes this climate band more accurately.

However, considering the ongoing Medieval Warm Period (with the Little Ice Age yet to begin), a slight northward shift beyond modern climate boundaries is geographically plausible.

An utterly perplexing individual.

You know on that note- I never heard how the Chinese faired during the little ice-age.

I would hope that in Europe it's an extremely disruptive event- the 1300's are where a lot of the image of the Dark Ages come from, and I hope that's properly simulated where that, combined with some of the major wars (like the Hundred Years War) and the Black Death make it feel like playing Europe at the start puts you through the ringer.

How did the Chinese fair in response to it? Or was it not as bad given you are further south?

 

[Nitan17]

My, am I popular today.

Nitan17 I know you're not one of those silent users—could you share your specific reason for clicking 'X'?

Because this belongs in the China Feedback thread, not a separate topic.

Don't worry, I have the impression he's just giving those reactions completely randomly.

Never randomly, always for a reason.

I feel like he's gone out of his way to disagree with every post I've made the last week, but I figured it was just a me thing.

I've been reading intently threads in which you happened to post often and I found myself having completely opposite stances than yours. I swear every time you spoke up about advances, national ideas, monuments or how historically nations should act I disagree vehemently and whatever you complain about I see as a great feature or a desired outcome. Not every post though! But many. Other users debate you so I don't feel the need to post myself, I just hand out reactions.

 

[SAmaster]

My, am I popular today.

Because this belongs in the China Feedback thread, not a separate topic.

Never randomly, always for a reason.

I've been reading intently threads in which you happened to post often and I found myself having completely opposite stances than yours. I swear every time you spoke up about advances, national ideas, monuments or how historically nations should act I disagree vehemently and whatever you complain about I see as a great feature or a desired outcome. Not every post though! But many. Other users debate you so I don't feel the need to post myself, I just hand out reactions.

Alright, but next time speak up if you're gonna hand them out that much, cause otherwise it starts feeling like trolling.

 

[zeruosi]

You know on that note- I never heard how the Chinese faired during the little ice-age.

I would hope that in Europe it's an extremely disruptive event- the 1300's are where a lot of the image of the Dark Ages come from, and I hope that's properly simulated where that, combined with some of the major wars (like the Hundred Years War) and the Black Death make it feel like playing Europe at the start puts you through the ringer.

How did the Chinese fair in response to it? Or was it not as bad given you are further south?

The Little Ice Age was a key factor contributing to the Ming Dynasty's defensive posture and eventual collapse under Qing rule.

This climatic shift triggered massive crop failures and agricultural crises across China, leading to widespread famine and refugee migrations.

In fact, China's plight was more severe than Europe's—during peak severity, snowfall occurred even in tropical-climate Guangzhou, while the Yangtze River Basin froze solid.

The combination of reduced precipitation and extreme cold caused large-scale ecological collapse in northern regions. Massive deforestation for fuel worsened environmental fragility, pushing the already volatile Yellow River into relentless vengeance. Throughout both the Ming and Qing dynasties, the Yellow River repeatedly changed course, unleashing floods that devastated everything in its path.

 

[zeruosi]

Because this belongs in the China Feedback thread, not a separate topic.

Alright

 

[SAmaster]

The Little Ice Age was a key factor contributing to the Ming Dynasty's defensive posture and eventual collapse under Qing rule.

This climatic shift triggered massive crop failures and agricultural crises across China, leading to widespread famine and refugee migrations.

In fact, China's plight was more severe than Europe's—during peak severity, snowfall occurred even in tropical-climate Guangzhou, while the Yangtze River Basin froze solid.

The combination of reduced precipitation and extreme cold caused large-scale ecological collapse in northern regions. Massive deforestation for fuel worsened environmental fragility, pushing the already volatile Yellow River into relentless vengeance. Throughout both the Ming and Qing dynasties, the Yellow River repeatedly changed course, unleashing floods that devastated everything in its path.

Didn't the Ming not collapse until the 1600's?

I think we're thinking of different events- there was the little ice-age in Europe that was in the 1300's that was a climate shift resulting in crop failures across the continent- it's just the Black Death came very soon after and had a much greater death toll.

Then there was a period I believe in the mid 1500's where there was a set of unusually cold winters that was noticeable but didn't cause as many problems- with events like the Thames river freezing solid.

 

[zeruosi]

Didn't the Ming not collapse until the 1600's?

I think we're thinking of different events- there was the little ice-age in Europe that was in the 1300's that was a climate shift resulting in crop failures across the continent- it's just the Black Death came very soon after and had a much greater death toll.

Then there was a period I believe in the mid 1500's where there was a set of unusually cold winters that was noticeable but didn't cause as many problems- with events like the Thames river freezing solid.

Indeed, the Little Ice Age I'm referencing encompasses a series of cooling events starting from the mid-Southern Song Dynasty, with global average temperatures dropping by approximately 1-2°C. This climatic episode didn't conclude until the fall of the Qing Dynasty.

It turns out that the European concept of the Little Ice Age refers to a singular climatic event. This is a new and valuable insight for me.

 

[SAmaster]

Indeed, the Little Ice Age I'm referencing encompasses a series of cooling events starting from the mid-Southern Song Dynasty, with global average temperatures dropping by approximately 1-2°C. This climatic episode didn't conclude until the fall of the Qing Dynasty.

It turns out that the European concept of the Little Ice Age refers to a singular climatic event. This is a new and valuable insight for me.

Right, you're taking a long view of things, where you're encompassing it from the 1300's to the 1500's.

In Europe you had a much more dramatic few decades in the 1300's, and then a less severe cap-off for a decade in either the 1500's or 1600's, so they are viewed more as two separate events, with the properly notable one in the 1300's- the latter one is seen as mostly novel, in that people noticed to it and adjusted to it, but without significant societal upheaval.

 

[nyetflix2]

The discrepancy in area size between China and Korea is just crazy.

Serious question, what do Chinese users think of the juxtaposition between the intense cultural diversity on the eastern/southern coasts and much more homogenous inland/North China? I do understand the coasts are particularly diverse in dialects, but still it strikes me as a bit uneven?

 

[luo]

Serious question, what do Chinese users think of the juxtaposition between the intense cultural diversity on the eastern/southern coasts and much more homogenous inland/North China? I do understand the coasts are particularly diverse in dialects, but still it strikes me as a bit uneven?

This largely depends on geographical factors. The Great Plains in northern China and its political status as the core area of dynastic rule have led to a complete cultural unity, while the mountainous terrain and later development in southern China make it difficult to achieve this linguistic and cultural unity. The exception is the Sichuan region, where the Sichuan Basin, as a complete geographical unit, is larger in size and has less internal terrain barriers compared to the mountainous southeastern China, resulting in a more unified culture.

Even in modern times, this difference is still very obvious. In southern China, there are often significant differences between dialects that are tens of kilometers apart, resulting in the inability to understand each other, while in northern China, the vast majority of places can understand each other's dialects.

 

[SAmaster]

This largely depends on geographical factors. The Great Plains in northern China and its political status as the core area of dynastic rule have led to a complete cultural unity, while the mountainous terrain and later development in southern China make it difficult to achieve this linguistic and cultural unity. The exception is the Sichuan region, where the Sichuan Basin, as a complete geographical unit, is larger in size and has less internal terrain barriers compared to the mountainous southeastern China, resulting in a more unified culture.

Even in modern times, this difference is still very obvious. In southern China, there are often significant differences between dialects that are tens of kilometers apart, resulting in the inability to understand each other, while in northern China, the vast majority of places can understand each other's dialects.

I feel like you see this in Chinese media too- like how in media China appears mostly temperate despite having such a large tropical region of it. But the North has a much stronger control of Chinese culture.

Similar too to how most of the US is portrayed as being temperate with wide swathes of desert and tropical areas- but the temperate north has much more development and control (with LA being like the one exception).

 

[TheNewCaliph]

This post has given me inspiration to do something similar in terms of comprehensive feedback for the regions of the Indian Subcontinent I'm most knowledgeable about and have largely not been focused on in the existing feedback thread