Mysteries, Grades of Gnosis and Iniciatic Religions

[Cèsar de Quart]

Hello there.

Many religions in Lux Invicta fit (or are the epytome) for mysteric, initiatic religions with grades of acceptance, circles or levels of knowledge associated with them. Mithraic religions, manichean and others have known grades of acceptance, "steps" of advancement into the deeper Mysteries of the Universe or the Divine.

My question or request is that these religions, or at lest the major ones, get this -very important- part of its creed into the mechanics. I might have missed it, but I've played Mithraistic characters and I haven't seen the grades or the possibility of advancement.

It would also be fun to play with, aside from flavour or a sense of religious piety or commitment. For instance, secretive religions or those that are not statist constructs might give more importance to the advancement of the iniciates and more respect for the masters of gnosis. Statist religions, or those in which belief is generalised or mandatory, might have forgotten this aspect of its nature, making it something rutinary and at a very young age, thus negligible (kind of like baptism was a big deal in the early days, and people baptised sometimes at an old age as a sign of deeper commitment or to washa way more sins, more easily).

I'd like to see events and traits depicting these grades or circles. Mitrhaic religions have known circles to which its iniciates have to enter after the Trials. Other iniciatic religions are harder to make out because of its secretive means, but it's also worth trying out.

Some Mysteries might have remained mysteries, some might have become widespread knowledge, and thus inconsequent, some might have become pal clubs like the Freemasonry nowadays, etc.

I apologise if this has already been brought up, but I haven't seen it around and I haven't noticed it ingame.

Thanks! Take care!

 

[DarkReborn]

I had the idea to do this ( in fact, you can check the gfx/traits folder and there are trait icons for some Mithraic grades ), it's just that I don't know how to fit it into LI.
For example, as you explained, Mithraism was very secretive, and I don't really know if LI's Mithraism is the same as OTL Mithraism, since in Mithraic realms, Mithras worshippers are the majority, if a whole province is converted to a mystery religion, how is it a mystery religion any more? Maybe it's grades became the priesthood's structure when Mithraism became more widespread. As you said, maybe the initiation into the religion's grades became something routinary, commonplace or mandatory like baptism in Christianity. We don't know for sure.

In LI, Mithraism has a very martial feeling to it (due to it being the official religion of the Roman army in all but name for a long time), so we can guess that advancement in the Mithraic grades is related to success in the realm's army. I guess we could make it so that, the more wars you win (or the better commander you're), the more influential you are in the overall Mithraic priesthood (which seems to have it's base in Panormus), maybe even taking the mantle of it's leader somehow (though the game's engine doesn't bend itself nicely to that)

Whatever the case, it's a good idea, but we'd have to make it generic enough... so it can be used for most religions. Different systems for different mystery and initiatic religions would increase lag.

 

[Ecnahc]

Perhaps your character can be initiated and progress through various levels, earning bonuses as they advance.

 

[Ezumiyr]

Whatever the case, it's a good idea, but we'd have to make it generic enough... so it can be used for most religions. Different systems for different mystery and initiatic religions would increase lag.

Or someone make submods for each Mystery religion, so the player can choose among them (if he wants to play a Mithraic character, he'll use the Mithraic submod alone). It would not increase lag so much and it keeps the specificity of each religion. But I fear it's a lot of work for this kind of event we will eventually not even read...

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Or someone make submods for each Mystery religion, so the player can choose among them (if he wants to play a Mithraic character, he'll use the Mithraic submod alone). It would not increase lag so much and it keeps the specificity of each religion. But I fear it's a lot of work for this kind of event we will eventually not even read...

I do read it. But I'm more interested in flags or bonuses than in events. Just for the flavour of knowing that you, count of Nowhereland, have a greater understanding of the Universe and the Divine than your Basileus Emperor Maximus Magnus Magnificus McCool, depending on the grades of your religion.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

It would be interesting, now that we're talking Mithra, to have religious-specific festivities and decisions. As a follower of Mithra, I'd like to be able to sacrifice bulls in a bombastic ritual, to go a bit nuts like Julian the Apostathe and have massive hecatombs, celebrate ecumenical lectures on the Academy of Athens as a Neoplatonic, recreate Bagdad's and Akbar the Great's Halls of Wisdom and all those things.

I guess most of these things are in motion already.

 

[DarkReborn]

Something like those are on their way to be done, but on a more generic scale. For example, characters whose religions is of a Scholarly soul (Neoplatonic group, Ilm Islam and the others I'm forgetting) can retreat to their studies for a while in order to advance their own knowledge or research personal projects (which may contribute into country-wide research) and so on. Religion-specific feasts though... take time, the coding part is easy, but I'm not good with coming up with flavour text, so it would be something dull (or worse, copied from some other source with the pronouns changed around so that it makes sense) unless I'm really inspired. I'll try though, the prospect of making some religions more unique is something I'd like to get to whenever I find some time for it.

 

[Enlil]

One really cool one is the christian group of Valentinianism. They got a Parthenon of Aeons, a divine sister of Jesus who is also the wife of God, who is only an imperfect agent of the Aeons, one of which is a christianified Egyptian god Horus. All of these form the Pleroma.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

One really cool one is the christian group of Valentinianism. They got a Parthenon of Aeons, a divine sister of Jesus who is also the wife of God, who is only an imperfect agent of the Aeons, one of which is a christianified Egyptian god Horus. All of these form the Pleroma.

I'm not familiar with Valentinianism, but what you describe sounds like a form of convoluted Gnostic Christianity. Nice.

I do know that Valentinianism is separated in Eastern and Western Schools.

So many religions with interesting themes for religion-related events and decisions...

 

[Enlil]

I'm not familiar with Valentinianism, but what you describe sounds like a form of convoluted Gnostic Christianity. Nice.

I do know that Valentinianism is separated in Eastern and Western Schools.

So many religions with interesting themes for religion-related events and decisions...

And they were still around for 480 ad, making me a very happy modder.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

What about using ASOIF mod's system for the Night Watch to "send people" into special schools or "citadel-like" institutions for a while, for their training?

 

[Numahr]

As I get more time (holidays are over, back to quiet office... ) I get to finally read these threads...

Here I have a question. We could create systems, such as the sword-become-books of the other thread or this one, which basically will increase the learning attributes through a form or another. They may have other effects (piety, prestige,...) but that is the primary goal.

But then what? Learning is good... but it is so long-term you don't really "feel" the rewards.

So before considering the creation of such systems I am thinking what could learning be good for in a more short-term, gameplay way. VIET gives a source of inspiration: the shamanic system makes it that when you go see a shaman, the probability of a good outcome depends on the learning attribute. This way, when you play a character good at connecting to the world of spirits (this is what learning represents for shamanic people in VIET), you feel it. Do the spirits really exist or is the bonus just the result of social and psychological impacts of the ceremony? Maybe yes, maybe not, it is a touch of supernatural that remains believable.

Which comes to a potential layer for LI: through high learning, you could get access to this kind of VIET-inspired decisions and short-term bonii. Maybe in relation with your "court chaplain"'s own learning attribute + your relation to the Head of Religion, if any. One example from real life: the Ayatollah Khomeyni was, before seizing power during the Iranian 1979 revolution, a refined cleric-intellectual who engaged with his pairs and wrote sophisticated books on religion and power, among other things. Based on his learning, he built up a spiritual-political system which could be a trait or a triggered modifier, acquired thanks to respect from his religious hierarchy (good relations with "Head of Religion") and high learning. That he then used this system for very practical political objectives and mobilizing masses as few have done, some kind of huge boost to levy_size.

Just thinking aloud, with no time at hand to implement these things as of now...

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

But then what? Learning is good... but it is so long-term you don't really "feel" the rewards.

That is a good question.