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Apr 3, 2001
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First, it is possible for Germany to ally with Nationalist Spain. It is very easy to do so, you just improve relations then invite them.

I did this because I wanted Gibralter, but I ended up having a game experience that was not satisfying.

I am not competent to argue whether Axis Spain should be this easy to achieve, but if you don't want people doing this, possibly it could be handled the same way Italy is handled, by not allowing it to join an alliance until some trigger fires, if ever.

Once I got my alliance with Spain, here is what happened:

1) After Nationalist Spain won the civil war, it put every air and land unit it had in the province in the extreme northwest of Spain. In order to try to fix this, I took military control and moved these to Madrid, then relinquished control. They moved straight back to where they were before.

2) At the time I attacked Poland, there was (I believe) one (at most two) garrison units in Gibralter, which wouldn't have been enough to stop the Spanish. The French did not defend the Spanish border at all.

3) Once I attacked Poland, Spain SR'd these units back to the provinces around Gibralter, and to the border with France. By this time, the British had reinforced Gibralter. The French defended their border, but not very heavily. There were 1-2 divisions per province, and the Spanish blew through them and were in the process of conquering France shortly thereafter. Meanwhile, there were still about 15 French units per Maginot Line province.

4) The Spanish didn't garrison landing beaches along their East coast, so the British invaded via these beaches, and captured Madrid, and about six other provinces, at at once point had Spain bisected. Eventually they got cut off and would have eventually been eliminated had I not stopped the game.

Perhaps this behavior can be improved, either by disallowing an Axis alliance with Spain, or by making Spain, France, and to a lesser extent Britain, play better once Spain joins the Axis.

bruce
 
brucemo said:
First, it is possible for Germany to ally with Nationalist Spain. It is very easy to do so, you just improve relations then invite them.

I did this because I wanted Gibralter, but I ended up having a game experience that was not satisfying.

I am not competent to argue whether Axis Spain should be this easy to achieve, but if you don't want people doing this, possibly it could be handled the same way Italy is handled, by not allowing it to join an alliance until some trigger fires, if ever.

Once I got my alliance with Spain, here is what happened:

1) After Nationalist Spain won the civil war, it put every air and land unit it had in the province in the extreme northwest of Spain. In order to try to fix this, I took military control and moved these to Madrid, then relinquished control. They moved straight back to where they were before.

2) At the time I attacked Poland, there was (I believe) one (at most two) garrison units in Gibralter, which wouldn't have been enough to stop the Spanish. The French did not defend the Spanish border at all.

3) Once I attacked Poland, Spain SR'd these units back to the provinces around Gibralter, and to the border with France. By this time, the British had reinforced Gibralter. The French defended their border, but not very heavily. There were 1-2 divisions per province, and the Spanish blew through them and were in the process of conquering France shortly thereafter. Meanwhile, there were still about 15 French units per Maginot Line province.

4) The Spanish didn't garrison landing beaches along their East coast, so the British invaded via these beaches, and captured Madrid, and about six other provinces, at at once point had Spain bisected. Eventually they got cut off and would have eventually been eliminated had I not stopped the game.

Perhaps this behavior can be improved, either by disallowing an Axis alliance with Spain, or by making Spain, France, and to a lesser extent Britain, play better once Spain joins the Axis.

bruce

I could not read it all but I agree with your initial comment. In fact was the same case in HOI1 and we made several events to make it as you are asking. As initially even the balkan countries were very difficult to bring into alliance I though this was sorted but obviously it is not the case. We will correct it for the next release. Thanks for the input
 
I had the same problem in my current game. Nat Spain moved ALL of it's units to the province directly north of Portugal after it won the civil war. Every unit they build gets sent there as well. Sounds like a problem with it's "peacetime AI".

It seemed to do fine while at war but once it's at peace the AI goes nuts. The only solution I see is to assume control a month or 2 before war with Poland happens and move their troops back to the borders they should be defending. I suspect they'll be fine again once war starts so I can put them back on their own again at that point but I refuse to let them leave every single border province completely empty.
 
I like the idea that Germany could court Spain and possibly ally with them. But in my opinion, historically they had been through many years of war and would not be eager to participate in another. Thus overall Spain should be Axis friendly but fairly neutral. Since v1.2 was released I've seen what I consider to be too often Spain joining the Axis.
 
I wish there was some sort of limited alliance option where you could send troops over as expeditionary forces to help them out but not directly intervene and not actually be at war. I loved the idea of the Legion Condor event in HSR so in my games I ally with them and send my air force over but nothing else. I agree that an all out alliance would probably have been unlikely but I don't think sending a bunch of planes and/or pilots over to help out would have been overly blatant.

What initially got me started allying with Nat Spain is that Nat Spain almost always lost the civil war in vanilla if I didn't intervene. With HSR that happens less often but I do still see Rep Spain win sometimes. I've tried just sending extra supplies and resources but it doesn't make enough difference if the war starts going the wrong way.

I also intervene if Spain starts rampaging through France when my war with the allies starts because I consider that too unrealistic. If that happens then I just assume control and move all their troops back to the border so France can retake the territory.
 
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khumak said:
I wish there was some sort of limited alliance option where you could send troops over as expeditionary forces to help them out but not directly intervene and not actually be at war. I loved the idea of the Legion Condor event in HSR so in my games I ally with them and send my air force over but nothing else. I agree that an all out alliance would probably have been unlikely but I don't think sending a bunch of planes and/or pilots over to help out would have been overly blatant.

What initially got me started allying with Nat Spain is that Nat Spain almost always lost the civil war in vanilla if I didn't intervene. With HSR that happens less often but I do still see Rep Spain win sometimes. I've tried just sending extra supplies and resources but it doesn't make enough difference if the war starts going the wrong way.

I also intervene if Spain starts rampaging through France when my war with the allies starts because I consider that too unrealistic. If that happens then I just assume control and move all their troops back to the border so France can retake the territory.

Ihope you are not talking about HSR 2.02. A Rebublican victory must be extremely rare in this version. It might happen though that it takes longer to defeat them depending on the initial HOI random distribution of provinces and units once the war starts.
 
Mithel said:
I like the idea that Germany could court Spain and possibly ally with them. But in my opinion, historically they had been through many years of war and would not be eager to participate in another. Thus overall Spain should be Axis friendly but fairly neutral. Since v1.2 was released I've seen what I consider to be too often Spain joining the Axis.

Totally agree with Mithel's assessment. That was the case in HSR1 and how we like it to be in HSR2. Franco was axis aligned (obviously without the axis he might have not succeeded) but he refused to be directly involved in the conflict. The blue division was labelled as 'volunteers' and was an additional excuse not to enter the war despite of the strong diplomatic pressure from hitler and Mussolini. In HOI terms they spent loads of money (former diplomatic points) trying to bring Franco into the axis with the only reward of the blue division for all those efforts. No way we can make it so easy in HSR then :)
 
Aregorn said:
Ihope you are not talking about HSR 2.02. A Rebublican victory must be extremely rare in this version. It might happen though that it takes longer to defeat them depending on the initial HOI random distribution of provinces and units once the war starts.

Haven't seen Nat Spain lose the civil war in HSR 2.02 but they did pretty often in 2.01 in my games. About half of the time for me. Usually it was because they lost too much territory before the "Axis armament shipments" came in so by then it was too late.

I played some more last night and even after my war with the allies started Nat Spain still insisted on moving all of it's units to that same province in the far NW of Spain. Very strange. For the units they had in Africa they moved every unit to the closest resource depot. Hungary didn't do that to me so maybe it's just a Spain problem.
 
It is a persistent problem that occurs whether or not Spain is at war.

If Nationalist Spain has a border with a country it is at war with, it does the right thing, more or less. It garrisons the border provinces and may try to attack.

The problem happens if Gibralter has been taken and France is knocked out, or if the war hasn't started yet.

In the save game file, there are some values for spain that describe the degree to which Spain is supposed to garrison beaches and its capital. These values are all zeros. So there is a bug in a file somewhere, probably having to do with an AI switch after the civil war ends.

I fiddled with these values in the save game file, so they looked like the values in other countries (I think I used Sweden), and after a few days it put its troops in sensible places.

bruce
 
I've always wondered why Spanish troops all liked to garrison one provence... The AI needs to become alert to the formation of alliances too; before the invasion force starts to occupy them is preferable! However I don't know if this is an AI bug, or a save & reload situation to "refresh the AI's memory" as it were.
 
Evans said:
I've always wondered why Spanish troops all liked to garrison one provence... The AI needs to become alert to the formation of alliances too; before the invasion force starts to occupy them is preferable! However I don't know if this is an AI bug, or a save & reload situation to "refresh the AI's memory" as it were.

I checked it on the weekend and indeed there is a big bug there. Unfortunately the civil war ai from HOI2 is crap (we did not change it) and the ai switch after the end of the war did not trigger for you. I rewrote the Spanish ai and made sure the ai switching will work after the civil war. Result : you will not have this problem again.
 
Aregorn said:
I checked it on the weekend and indeed there is a big bug there. Unfortunately the civil war ai from HOI2 is crap (we did not change it) and the ai switch after the end of the war did not trigger for you. I rewrote the Spanish ai and made sure the ai switching will work after the civil war. Result : you will not have this problem again.

I noticed the same thing and can verify that it does fix the problem. One of the first lines in SP_EndCivilWar.ai says switch = no. I changed it to yes. I also changed the priorities in SPA_1936.ai to match what's in SPR_1936.ai since otherwise it's all zeros. You have to start a new game for it to take effect though.
 
Aregorn said:
I checked it on the weekend and indeed there is a big bug there. Unfortunately the civil war ai from HOI2 is crap (we did not change it) and the ai switch after the end of the war did not trigger for you. I rewrote the Spanish ai and made sure the ai switching will work after the civil war. Result : you will not have this problem again.

:D Nice one Aregorn! Thanks for fixing this curious bug
 
khumak said:
I noticed the same thing and can verify that it does fix the problem. One of the first lines in SP_EndCivilWar.ai says switch = no. I changed it to yes. I also changed the priorities in SPA_1936.ai to match what's in SPR_1936.ai since otherwise it's all zeros. You have to start a new game for it to take effect though.

The command you changed from no to yes will allow the ai to switch automatically to a more convinient ai file. This might not have the desired results. What needs to be done is an event which will make the ai to switch to a new ai file. This will ensure that the ai file being used is the one you wanted and you do not need to restart the game although you need a bit of time until the country adjusts to the new ai definitions.
 
i got the problem too..
but i want to stay allied with spain - i dont see why its so unbelievable that with a little more pressure from the axis - spain wouldve entered the war (after french was defeated..)
even if its unhistorical - if you would be historical you couldnt win ;)

so my question: as i dont want to take military control - is there anyway to change it without the need to start all over?

i think i could find out myself but maybe someone allready did it or can easily tell..
(maybe a trigger pointing to a midified ai version - dont know which changes apply when allready playing)


thx in advance
 
Thork said:
so my question: as i dont want to take military control - is there anyway to change it without the need to start all over?

Well Aregorn said you can fix it without starting over but the change I made didn't seem to do anything until I started over. Aregorn didn't define how long "a bit of time" is though. He also may have just meant for his change.

I detailed the changes I made and they've worked well in all of the games I played since then but they didn't fix the game I was playing at the time I made the change. I wasn't clear on what change Aregorn made so not sure what's involved in that.

Also worth noting, the state of Nat Spain's AI after my change just means it defends it's borders on the European continent. It doesn't seem to care about Africa at all. Unless I intervene, Nat Spain loses all of it's holdings in Africa. It also pushes deep into France when my war with France starts which I dislike. Preventing that means you'd have to assume control and move their units away from France or tweak the AI files more. It's still better than having them move all of their units to 1 province that has no need to be defended though.

Probably have to wait for the next HSR release for an AI that makes more sense unless you like to script.
 
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Mithel said:
I like the idea that Germany could court Spain and possibly ally with them. But in my opinion, historically they had been through many years of war and would not be eager to participate in another. Thus overall Spain should be Axis friendly but fairly neutral. Since v1.2 was released I've seen what I consider to be too often Spain joining the Axis.
Aregorn,

If you're willing and able to limit a NatSpain Axis entry to some triggers, could I interest you in these:

Alliance Chance=Yes
If and only if (A and B)=True

A = True if Axis is not at war with the Soviet Union
B = True if (C OR D OR E)= True

C = True if London is occupied by a nation other than UK
D = True if Suez is occupied by a nation other than UK
E = True if Gibraltar is occupied by a nation other than UK

It could be argued that Franco wouldn't enter into the Axis even if two of these conditions were met, but I figure that if there was peace with the Soviets and either there's a prospect of closing off the med or Sealion is successful that Franco could be persuaded.
 
Brasidas said:
Aregorn,

If you're willing and able to limit a NatSpain Axis entry to some triggers, could I interest you in these:

Alliance Chance=Yes
If and only if (A and B)=True

A = True if Axis is not at war with the Soviet Union
B = True if (C OR D OR E)= True

C = True if London is occupied by a nation other than UK
D = True if Suez is occupied by a nation other than UK
E = True if Gibraltar is occupied by a nation other than UK

It could be argued that Franco wouldn't enter into the Axis even if two of these conditions were met, but I figure that if there was peace with the Soviets and either there's a prospect of closing off the med or Sealion is successful that Franco could be persuaded.

Yes I would say so. Not done anything yet in the case of Spain becuase the main reason why Spain is important is to take Gibraltar, and if you have taken london and Suez already... I know what you mean though. The first target is to script properly all the alliance probabilities, second step would be to actually increase those probabilities according to specific world scenarios and priorities and first priorities are the historical allies. Then we will go for all the potential once which did not get in because the conditions were not good enough. Anyhow the best would be to modify everything so that there is always a chance to change history. Our job is to give realistic chances for it :).
 
I hate the Ideal OF nationlist Spain

Alot of time if Im playing as the USA or other countries in the Allied Course, or even the Russians, I send lots of Materials to Repulican Spain, 5000 energy, 5000 oil, 5000 metal, 5000 rare materials, 5000 supplies, 5000 money, I do this about 6 times, and repulican spain won the civil war, and allied with britian and france, it was really neat, but i was only able to do it a few times. Cost me alot of resources, but it was cool, just got to keep up the higher rate than the axis shipments to nat. spain. :eek: