Nationalist Spain questions

[unmerged(95904)]

Has anyone else played Nationalist Spain under the most current CORE mod? I have tried and the tech tree is so truncated it is a handicap past the historical end of the civil war. Is now 1942 and no air doctrines, no air production besides leasing, no special research, no radar, and agriculture will not advance past 1920's. I even have blueprints for some of them I've stolen and some of which were given by event at the end of the civil war but everything is remaining grey.

It is a pre-industrial country but both semi and industrial remain red. Did I miss a triggering event? I played Switzerland from 1/1/36 and switched countries the day the civil war started and ended it before the end of the year.

If this is WAD is that the way the .4 mod works also? I like the CORE mod but it makes playing even "major" minors a serious handicap - they are hard enough to play as it is. It would be disappointing if CORE is only fun if you play the majors.

 

[unmerged(56271)]

Pre-industrial? Think yourself lucky! I am playing NatChi and all I have is a lousy Agricultural economy - I can't build a motorized division, or even IC! Worse, it looks like I might be limited to naval transports with only a 250km range (which deeply sucks if so).

For aircraft though, I believe that after you have researched "Developed Mission" you can go to "Policy Change" and start getting into the aircraft tree from there. Unfortunately, "Developed Mission" is a 1941 tech, which means it's a waste of time trying to research prior to about 1940 unless you have pretty cool tech teams. By about 1942/43 you should be getting up to speed in the aircraft tree though.

 

[unmerged(52476)]

Has anyone else played Nationalist Spain under the most current CORE mod? I have tried and the tech tree is so truncated it is a handicap past the historical end of the civil war. Is now 1942 and no air doctrines, no air production besides leasing, no special research, no radar, and agriculture will not advance past 1920's. I even have blueprints for some of them I've stolen and some of which were given by event at the end of the civil war but everything is remaining grey.

It is a pre-industrial country but both semi and industrial remain red. Did I miss a triggering event? I played Switzerland from 1/1/36 and switched countries the day the civil war started and ended it before the end of the year.

If this is WAD is that the way the .4 mod works also? I like the CORE mod but it makes playing even "major" minors a serious handicap - they are hard enough to play as it is. It would be disappointing if CORE is only fun if you play the majors.

The philosophy of CORE is that in the few years the game covers no nation is able to change its industrial status (which is pobably pretty realistic).

I don't know about Nationalist Spain, but I would strongly guess that this is WAD.

Exactly which tech should be available for which level of industrialization could be discussed, of course. For example, if you think that you should be able to build better transports, you should just change it in your game. If you disagree with the whole philosophy, CORE is probably not your mod (or you take the time and make your own mod based on CORE).

 

[unmerged(95904)]

That's what I'm curious about, if it's WAD or a glitch, since some of the techs I will never be able to research were given by event at the end of the civil war. It also seems a little unrealistic that Spain cannot attain 1930's agriculture by the end of the game (1953) since even agrairian economies can advance down that path. If that is the case I will need to doctor the save file or find a different mod to play minors I guess.

Also, the civil war did not unlock the rest of the naval tech tree (convoys, etc.) and I have never played a country involved in a war that did not unlock those techs as soon as the war started. Is that also WAD?

 

[unmerged(95904)]

Pre-industrial? Think yourself lucky! I am playing NatChi and all I have is a lousy Agricultural economy - I can't build a motorized division, or even IC! Worse, it looks like I might be limited to naval transports with only a 250km range (which deeply sucks if so).

For aircraft though, I believe that after you have researched "Developed Mission" you can go to "Policy Change" and start getting into the aircraft tree from there. Unfortunately, "Developed Mission" is a 1941 tech, which means it's a waste of time trying to research prior to about 1940 unless you have pretty cool tech teams. By about 1942/43 you should be getting up to speed in the aircraft tree though.

I would, I even have the blueprint for it given at the end of the civil war (I think) but it remains greyed out and unattainable.

I also have some of those 'coast only' transports (but three better ones given by event at the end of the civil war too). If you can purchase a transport from someone with enough range to reach where you want to go for invasion (Japan I assume) you can still use the short range ones for transport over large distances by loading units on them in port and then 'rebasing' them to the invaded port with the units inside. That's the only way I could move units among Spain's posessions before the civil war ended.

 

[unmerged(56271)]

I would, I even have the blueprint for it given at the end of the civil war (I think) but it remains greyed out and unattainable.

Hmm, I don't think it's supposed to happen that way. I can't confirm because I am only just now researching "Policy Change", but according to the manual and the info in the tree itself, this should eventually get me into the 1930s tech tree. Although, as an Agricultural economy, it appears I cannot research past 1943 era aircraft anyhow because later models require electronics which are also off limits.

I also have some of those 'coast only' transports (but three better ones given by event at the end of the civil war too). If you can purchase a transport from someone with enough range to reach where you want to go for invasion (Japan I assume) you can still use the short range ones for transport over large distances by loading units on them in port and then 'rebasing' them to the invaded port with the units inside. That's the only way I could move units among Spain's posessions before the civil war ended.

It didn't occur to me to try purchasing but I'm not familiar with this side of the game and since I have no allies I'm not sure if I can purchase from non-allied countries. But I guess I could give it a try.

It seems absurd that I can't build anything but coastal transports given that it appears I can build practically everything else. I mean, if you can build battleships and aircraft carriers, why the heck couldn't you build a cheap transport with a decent range?

For that matter, I have to wonder why you should be able to build battleships and other heavy warships - with their massive steel plate and steam turbine requirements - and not be able to build even a light tank! That just makes no sense to me at all. I have no objection to realistic limitations on less industrialized nations but on the face of it there some pretty stark anomalies in what you can and can't do.

 

[unmerged(56271)]

I'm beginning to see what you mean, I have now researched a further tech in the air units tree and the tech beneath it still hasn't opened! Presumably I have to research one of the air doctrine techs first but the one I need is prohibitively difficult, and that's on top of the two techs I will still need to get to better aircraft!

I can see now it's going to be 1945 before I even get access to 1930s aircraft - and I've already spent the last three years doing nothing but researching stuff to try and make an invasion of Japan viable! It's getting to the stage where I'm thinking about just chucking the game because I have nothing to do but sit around year after year waiting to get the vital techs.

 

[unmerged(95904)]

I'm beginning to see what you mean, I have now researched a further tech in the air units tree and the tech beneath it still hasn't opened! Presumably I have to research one of the air doctrine techs first but the one I need is prohibitively difficult, and that's on top of the two techs I will still need to get to better aircraft!

I can see now it's going to be 1945 before I even get access to 1930s aircraft - and I've already spent the last three years doing nothing but researching stuff to try and make an invasion of Japan viable! It's getting to the stage where I'm thinking about just chucking the game because I have nothing to do but sit around year after year waiting to get the vital techs.

The more I experiment with playing 'major' minors the more I feel the CORE mod was designed for realism in SP games as a Major power and curtails the minors so they will have an intentionally limited effect on the overall course of the game. I do wish that someone making the most current version of the CORE mod would either weigh in on the issue or try a game as Nationalist China, Rumaina, Nationalist Spain, Turkey, etc. and see if it is working for them as they thought it should and if they are happy playing their lot.

I like the CORE mod playing as a major power; but would not recommend it for any country besides GER, UK, FRA, USA, SOV, ITA, or JAP (and ITA/FRA are iffy). If anyone has played a CORE game with any country besides these would they recommend the choice to me? I would like to give it another chance without running down the list alphabetically - since most countries appear to be as interesting as playing Liberia without cheating or exploits.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Hagar]

The more I experiment with playing 'major' minors the more I feel the CORE mod was designed for realism in SP games as a Major power and curtails the minors so they will have an intentionally limited effect on the overall course of the game. I do wish that someone making the most current version of the CORE mod would either weigh in on the issue or try a game as Nationalist China, Rumaina, Nationalist Spain, Turkey, etc. and see if it is working for them as they thought it should and if they are happy playing their lot.

I like the CORE mod playing as a major power; but would not recommend it for any country besides GER, UK, FRA, USA, SOV, ITA, or JAP (and ITA/FRA are iffy). If anyone has played a CORE game with any country besides these would they recommend the choice to me? I would like to give it another chance without running down the list alphabetically - since most countries appear to be as interesting as playing Liberia without cheating or exploits.

Thanks in advance.

Yes we do, and are happy with the results so far. We aim for historical accuracy rather than a gamey mod, so a minor nation should be just that - by and large inconsequential to the main world affairs. That doesn't mean they haven't any influence, they do, but they won't control the tide, but rather react to it. In all that doesn't mean that playing a minor isn't any fun, I know a lot of CORE players who enjoy doing so. Just don't expect any Pinky and the Brain scenarios if you do. Within CORE the chance of Bhutan taking over the world will be absolutely zero, like it should be as far as we're concerned.

 

[unmerged(56271)]

Speaking of realism, there also appears to be some problems with Japan in the early years.

When Japan attacked me (NatChi) in 1937, I loaded the Japanese momentarily to get an idea of what I was facing, and I couldn't believe how weak they were! They declared war when they only had a total of about 35 divisions, including numerous garrison divisions and very few non-reserve divs. By that stage of the game, as NatChi I already had over 100 divisions and it was an absolute cakewalk kicking the Japs out of mainland Asia. In fact, they were so weak, I actually encountered more resistance from the army of Manchukuo!

By contrast, in the vanilla game Japan had IIRC over 80 frontline divisions when it DOWed, and it was a real struggle holding them off and then gradually turning the tables on them. So I'm not sure what CORE has done to the Japs, but they appear to be very underpowered in CORE, in the early game at least.

 

[dec152000]

Hi,

WRT the CHI/JAP balance the Vanilla game is an example of a gamey solution. Vanilla allows both sides to build far too many units. For CORE we've toned this down a lot. AI JAP usually beats AI CHI in 0.3x versions while as CHI you obviously found JAP to easy to defeat. This is a hard thing to balance out when one of these poweres is human. O.40 should be an improvement here.

Tech Tree Limitations: Yes, there are a lot of Techs you won't be able to research as a Pre-Industrial nation. OTOH, very few nations in this category actually developed much of any domestic weaponry. We've tried to balance the possible with the practical here. This may be a bit frustrating in some cases but it isn't being done to intentionally hobble smaller nations. Some of the smaller nations have in fact got a lot of "help" to try and make them more competitive. FIN is a perfect example and for 0.40 you'd note a lot of changes to POL that help expand it's possible options. WRT to Aircraft I don't recall exactly how this worked for 0.3x and we've been in development on 0.40 for a long time. At least now you should be able to start developing aircraft after completing the Air Mission techs and following up with Military Design and 30's Aviation Industry.

mm

 

[unmerged(56271)]

In principle, I like the idea of having different economic levels for different powers. And I'm not implacably opposed to the air system as it's been implemented - maybe it just came as a big shock after playing vanilla. However, I do feel that making one of the key techs - the "Developed Mission" from memory - a 1941 tech makes it very hard to develop any sort of air power within a reasonable time frame, and maybe that is something that could be reconsidered (although I could probably just change it myself).

One thing I do think might be worthwhile though, is the ability to change a country's fundamental economic system if it actually manages to conquer a more technologically advanced country. So for example, if as China you actually manage to conquer Japan or some other major, then that ought to give you a leg up into the big league, as you get to inherit the infrastructure and economic know-how of the conquered nation.

A mechanic like that would add a lot more interest to playing the minors IMO, without unduly compromising on the "realism" goal.

 

[unmerged(95904)]

Yes we do, and are happy with the results so far. We aim for historical accuracy rather than a gamey mod, so a minor nation should be just that - by and large inconsequential to the main world affairs. That doesn't mean they haven't any influence, they do, but they won't control the tide, but rather react to it. In all that doesn't mean that playing a minor isn't any fun, I know a lot of CORE players who enjoy doing so. Just don't expect any Pinky and the Brain scenarios if you do. Within CORE the chance of Bhutan taking over the world will be absolutely zero, like it should be as far as we're concerned.

Thank you for your answer but you did not share with me which minor country you would recommend for an interesting game.

If you somehow equate my questioning if Spain can develop 1930's agriculture or any sort of air technology whatsoever by 1953 (if that is how this mod is intentionally designed even, I am not even sure that's WAD) with Buhtan conquering the world you either greatly misunderstand me --- or have answered my question quite clearly.

I also like the realism, the events, AI, and flavor of this particular mod - as long as I am playing a Major country.

I ask again. Which minor country would you recommend?

 

[unmerged(95904)]

Hi,

WRT the CHI/JAP balance the Vanilla game is an example of a gamey solution. Vanilla allows both sides to build far too many units. For CORE we've toned this down a lot. AI JAP usually beats AI CHI in 0.3x versions while as CHI you obviously found JAP to easy to defeat. This is a hard thing to balance out when one of these poweres is human. O.40 should be an improvement here.

Tech Tree Limitations: Yes, there are a lot of Techs you won't be able to research as a Pre-Industrial nation. OTOH, very few nations in this category actually developed much of any domestic weaponry. We've tried to balance the possible with the practical here. This may be a bit frustrating in some cases but it isn't being done to intentionally hobble smaller nations. Some of the smaller nations have in fact got a lot of "help" to try and make them more competitive. FIN is a perfect example and for 0.40 you'd note a lot of changes to POL that help expand it's possible options. WRT to Aircraft I don't recall exactly how this worked for 0.3x and we've been in development on 0.40 for a long time. At least now you should be able to start developing aircraft after completing the Air Mission techs and following up with Military Design and 30's Aviation Industry.

mm

Thanks! I will wait for .4 to try a game as a minor then.

Do you know if the inabilty to develop the agricultural techs is WAD or a bug for Nationalist Spain? I had thought all countries could develop those. Do you know if the unlocking of the rest of the Naval Tree not happening for the Spanish civil war is also WAD or am I also mistaken in my belief that any war should unlock those for a country? And last - why were air techs given by event at the end of the civil war if they can never be researched?

If any of that is non-intentional will it be fixed in .4?

 

[HistoryMan]

There does appear to be some problems with Nat Spain right now, and probably (for that matter) any other nation that gets released as a revolter. We are looking at it to try and resolve the problem.

Tim

 

[Loerst]

I ask again. Which minor country would you recommend?

Right now I'm playing as Australia and am very much surprised how interesting game is. I'm not military controlling anyone, lead only my own troops and those that are voluntarily lended to me and try to help as much as I can to help our cause. I can't win the war on my own (actually it looks like we will lose, if Americans wont quickly do something) but I do have the feeling, that I'm having an impact on the whole situation.

 

[unmerged(95904)]

Right now I'm playing as Australia and am very much surprised how interesting game is. I'm not military controlling anyone, lead only my own troops and those that are voluntarily lended to me and try to help as much as I can to help our cause. I can't win the war on my own (actually it looks like we will lose, if Americans wont quickly do something) but I do have the feeling, that I'm having an impact on the whole situation.

Thanks. I have taken your recommendation and it is a much less frustrating game than Nationalist Spain was - and has led to me probably answering my own question. It has a much less truncated tech tree than Spain did, which made me wonder why the huge difference between Austrailia and Spain so I reread the PDF manual that accompanies the CORE mod.

If someone knows better please correct me but it has Spain (and Poland) listed specifically at the end of the explanation of semi-industrialization as countries with that tech. There appears to be a huge difference between pre and semi-industrialized countries capabilities and that pre-industrialization is not representative of most of the "major" minors capability within the game.

It would of been much simpler for me to understand if somebody would of said, "Nationalist Spain is broke; do not judge the mod by playing it. If you do, you *are* basically playing a large Liberia and, no, they aren't much fun."

I have looked and do not see it listed as a bug - am I the first to try Nationalist Spain or am I missing it? The fix for it may be as simple as changing however it is flagged for levels of industrialization - or it could be as complicated as how new countries are created. Either way - if you need additional Beta testers for .4 who will play minors to check for bugs let me know.

 

[CronoDroid]

Well as HistoryMan said below CORE is having trouble with revolters (Nat Spain is one), so you might have to wait for the next release before it's fixed, however you might want to try this:

1. If you don't mind starting a new game, go into /scenarios/CORE_1936/SPA_36.inc and change techapp 5840 (pre-industrial econ) to 5220 (semi-industrialised), they have put it all in a nice easy to understand list so it shouldn't be hard to spot. I don't know how revolters work exactly but something tells me they probably inherit the tech of their parent nation, this way when Nat Spain does revolt they'll have semi-industrial instead of pre-industrial. That is unless I'm completely wrong, in which case tell me so.

2. If you don't mind editing your savegame file, find the nation with the id = SPR (Nat Spain I believe) and go down to its "techapps" and replace 5840 with 5220. If it all works out, you'll probably end up getting access to all the tech you need (once you research the required techs of course, usually the Light/Heavy Industry ones or Great Depression Recovery if Nat Spain has it).

If you're having trouble finding Nat Spain's section in your savegame (they are huge files), bring up the search function (Ctrl+F) and type in "capital = 341" (which is Madrid), then do a new search for "techapp" and you should be presented with Nat Spain's techs. Then find 5840 and change it to 5220 like I said above.

Hope this helps, good luck!

 

[|AXiN|]

The way industrial techs work in 0.4 has changed somewhat, I'll have to check to see if the problems persist though.

I've had very enjoyable games with Austria, Hungary, Romania, Australia and Nationalist China as far as major minors and minors go.

 

[dec152000]

Hi,

Yes, things will change once 0.40 is out. All of the economic levels will be additive rather than the current system where a single level is assigned. Also, a number of techs are set to not transfer to Revolters and this includes the PI/SI/FI techs. so every released nation will normally start out as AG. the more advanced revolters should be able to "rebuild" their economy by researching back to their old level. This should put a damper on released nations.



mm