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Chamboozer

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Dec 5, 2008
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All naval warfare in EUIII was based around destruction of the enemy's fleet, followed by blockade or naval invasion. However this is entirely ahistorical for galley combat in inland seas, namely the Med and Red Sea. Galleys were given a bonus to shock to help them win battles, but the real advantage of galleys wasn't their enhanced ability to win battles, but rather their ability to avoid them. Galleys can sail in shallower water and don't rely on winds the way sailing ships do, meaning they can easily keep close to the shore to be protected by coastal fortifications, or they can slip past a blockade to resupply a besieged fort. Their small size also had a great disadvantage: They could not carry enough supplies for year-long operations, and thus the permanent blockades which were achievable in EUIII were practically impossible in reality. This gives them an entirely different strategic use than that which was represented in EUIII.

Since blockades were impossible, galleys were used to raid coastlines and shipping lanes, rather than to fight enemy fleets. Real engagements between enemy fleets at sea were so unpredictable that no sane commander would pursue such a thing unless having overwhelming odds - and then the enemy commander would have to be a fool to get caught in battle against such odds. Battles near the coast were more predictable because they were more lopsided - overwhelming defender advantage. A well positioned fortress armed with cannon could permanently prevent a hostile fleet from approaching the harbor where the friendly fleet would be stationed. The hostile fleet would have to maintain battle formation permanently in case it was attacked, while the friendly fleet could rest and attack only at the most opportune moment. The best illustration of this is the Battle of Preveza. Thus EUIII's method of giving victory to the larger fleet with the better admiral is ahistorical, since it doesn't take ownership of coastal fortresses into account. The best solution to this, in my opinion, is to drain a galley's morale slowly while it is out at sea. The longer your fleet remains away from home, the more likely it is to be destroyed in battle. This gives the defending galley fleet the advantage, as would be historical. Such a thing can explain the Ottoman defeat at Lepanto - giving up the protection of the fortress to fight an unpredictable battle at sea.

To represent the ability of a galley to easily avoid battle, upon contact with an enemy fleet at sea (before the battle begins) both sides should be able to attempt to withdraw (causing 0 casualties or captures). The success chance would be very high, modified by the maneuver score of both admirals and the distance to a friendly port. To catch a retreating enemy fleet, one would have to have a great advantage in maneuver compared to the retreating admiral. Of course, retreating after a battle has already started should incur the normal penalties of potentially losing ships in the process.

The last, and potentially most important use of galleys was their ability to get supplies to a besieged coastal fortress. Because of problems caused by weather and supply, a galley fleet could not blockade a port year-round. When the enemy fleet inevitably sent most of its ships back home to avoid a potential disaster, a much smaller fleet of galleys could move in to slip past the remaining blockaders and resupply the besieged fort. This happened, for instance, during the Siege of Famagusta and the Siege of Malta. Even though the Spanish fleet had been annihilated at Djerba, they were still able to slip a relief force past the much more powerful Ottoman fleet. It did not take a lot of effort to get men and supplies past a hostile fleet - this is why sieges typically failed if the fortress could not be conquered within the campaign season. In EUIV, this could be done by giving galleys the ability to do a 'resupply' mission on a besieged coastal fort. Success would depend primarily on the distance from the besieged fort to another friendly port, modified by both defending and attacking admiral maneuver, size of enemy fleet, and number of galleys sent on the mission. The larger the force sent to relieve the fort, the higher the chance of success, but also the higher the chance of losing ships in the process.

This is the reason why Mediterranean ports in the 16th Century split along two lines - Ottoman in the Eastern Mediterranean, Spanish in the Western. It was very easy to prevent the capture of a fort near to one's base of operations. The strength of forts were due to the revolution in fortress design that began at the turn of the century, spearheaded by the Italians. In the 15th Century, forts were not so easily defensible, as the sieges of Coron and Modon showed. In the 16th Century, the Spanish could not hope to conquer a port in Turkey or Egypt, and the Ottomans would be insane to attack Sicily or Barcelona, while both could, with great effort, conquer fortresses in their respective spheres of influence.

For any player in the Mediterranean, though primarily for the Spanish, Ottomans, Venetians, and Barbary states, galley warfare is going to be a very important aspect of gameplay, that is why it should be overhauled to be realistic and historically accurate.

tl;dr, Galley combat in EUIII is ahistorical and should be fixed by representing the way galleys and coastal fortresses worked together and protected each other.

EDIT: Removed a section on the relationship between big ships and galleys in which I said some things which, looking back on it, weren't completely accurate.
 
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Galleys were actually a pretty good gun platform up until 1600 -- they could pack a lot of firepower in the bow, with some very heavy guns, and larger ships had not really been developed yet to deal crushing broadsides. But, I definitely think the game could benefit by allowing forces - be it cavalry or galleys or light infantry - an "agility" rating to avoid combat. Patrick O'Brien has a nice turn of phrase describing a semi-fictional frigate vs galley battle in 1815: outgunned, the galleys turned into the face of the wind where no sailing ship could follow.

The ability to wage guerrilla warfare on land and sea, the ability of small agile forces to influence control of territory (including sea routes) without ever being able to face your foe in a knock-down, drag-out battle, definitely would benefit the historicity of player choices.

Along with Marco, I also think that's a great essay.
 
Nice essay; but if galleys are newly modelled, shouldn't they also consume manpower? For some states - you know, this other one between Spain and the Turks, with all these galleys, trade, fortresses and stuff - which used the galley frequently, it was a crucial factor to gain the needed men. A normal galley needed huge amounts of rowers, compared to "normal" ships.
 
Maybe make slaves a resources? They can be used in crewing galleys, settling the New World, building public works, and -- if you're Ottoman, or have a similar institution -- making elite troops.

Maybe the tag that lets your faction create slave-soldiers also carries a tech penalty at later stages of the game, and is hard to get rid of.

This gets away from the particular advantages of galleys, though, which apply whether or not crews are slave or free.

I like the idea of having special naval resupply for besieged ports, although it might be a bit of micromanagement that could best be done by blockade.
 
Galleys were actually a pretty good gun platform up until 1600 -- they could pack a lot of firepower in the bow, with some very heavy guns, and larger ships had not really been developed yet to deal crushing broadsides.

Indeed, though even the most heavily armed Venetian galley would have had at most 2-3 large guns or 1 large gun plus 2-6 smaller ones. Nothing compared to the dozen large cannons needed for a broadside-firing sailing ship. Galley cannon were mainly just meant to augment their ramming ability - smash into an enemy vessel, then fire at point-blank range for maximum damage, followed by boarding.

Nice essay; but if galleys are newly modelled, shouldn't they also consume manpower? For some states - you know, this other one between Spain and the Turks, with all these galleys, trade, fortresses and stuff - which used the galley frequently, it was a crucial factor to gain the needed men. A normal galley needed huge amounts of rowers, compared to "normal" ships.

Maybe make slaves a resources? They can be used in crewing galleys, settling the New World, building public works, and -- if you're Ottoman, or have a similar institution -- making elite troops.

Maybe the tag that lets your faction create slave-soldiers also carries a tech penalty at later stages of the game, and is hard to get rid of.

This gets away from the particular advantages of galleys, though, which apply whether or not crews are slave or free.

I like the idea of having special naval resupply for besieged ports, although it might be a bit of micromanagement that could best be done by blockade.

Yeah, it could be done using the existing manpower system, though that wouldn't be the perfect solution. Truly modelling the slave trade, from the Pontic Steppe, Africa, and galley raiding in the Mediterranean, would be a wonderful addition to the game and would greatly enhance the historical accuracy in countless ways.
 
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Thought of galley-prisoners too, but as we don't know in which regard EUIV resembles EUIII - which had very restricted possibilities to show that - I was not so audacious to recommend it. But perhaps the new trade routes and the new trade system can be an aswer; but as we don't know anything substantial regarding that, I can't say in which way it could be of use.

Only to add a little detail, the galeasse - like the San Lorenzo - had eight big cannons in the front, six on each side, and two at the back. Twelve minor ones were also positioned on them, which makes 16 huge and 12 smaller ones. I know, that this is not comparable with a galeon, and that the galeasse were exceptions, but I wanted to point out the maximum. :)
 
Indeed, though even the most heavily armed Venetian galley would have had at most 2-3 large guns or 1 large gun plus 2-6 smaller ones.

Right -- but the main centerline gun was very big (up to 50 pound shot I believe for Lepanto, though maybe 36 pounds more typical), easier to aim, and -- as you say -- you could row up to pointblank range, sometimes under the enemy's guns. I'll check my sources, but I think that the weight of a galley's forward blast was heavier than that of most sailing vessels in the 16th century. Even sailing vessels, until the early 17th century, were designed to fire primarily from the bow, with the broadside a bit of an afterthought.

Galleys were fragile and a logistical headache, but they could pack a heavy sting. They should be prime combat vessels until 1600 with the agility a plus -- at any rate, not a budget option. They are totally unsuited for long-range action because they need constant sources of fresh water.
 
Only to add a little detail, the galeasse - like the San Lorenzo - had eight big cannons in the front, six on each side, and two at the back. Twelve minor ones were also positioned on them, which makes 16 huge and 12 smaller ones. I know, that this is not comparable with a galeon, and that the galeasse were exceptions, but I wanted to point out the maximum. :)

Venetians had a higher ship-to-cannon ratio than everybody else but I never knew it was ever taken to such an extreme :wacko:. I can't imagine such a thing would have been very useful in anything other than a full-on melee. Was it at Lepanto?

They are totally unsuited for long-range action because they need constant sources of fresh water.

Yep, hence the inability to blockade properly. I see where you're coming from with their ability to pack a heavy punch, but I just can't see a line-abreast formation of galleys taking on an equal number of line-astern galleons. They'd ram, open fire, then have to fight an uphill battle as they attempted to board. I guess the issue is naval forcelimits - you can have X number of galleys, or X number of big ships. There's no way to have 1.5X galleys instead of big ships.
 
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I agree that naval warfare (particularly in the med) needs an overhaul. The tricky thing is to devise a system that won't be too micro-management intensive (or annoying, see Magna Mundi's "Piracy" system, urgh).

What if fleets could exert a "zone of control", and you could give them different tasks to do within that zone of control? For instance within the zone of control they can intercept enemy fleets, raid trade routes and supply lanes and resupply besieged fortresses. You could give fleets orders to carry out within it's zone, like attack enemy fleets, avoid enemy fleets etc.

Furthermore, going on from what you say about fortresses being decisive, Fleets have a percentage chance of retreating to a fortress and fighting with large combat advantages. The chance to be able to retreat is modified by how fast your fleet is compared to the enemy, how close you are to home, and what kind of order you gave.

Fleets really need to be more important, in real life naval warfare could make or break a country, in EU3, the player can usually ignore it.
 
Fleets are going to play a bigger part in the new tradesystem so navies should be way more important in this game.

This is great news.


I just can't see a line-abreast formation of galleys taking on an equal number of line-astern galleons. They'd ram, open fire, then have to fight an uphill battle as they attempted to board.

After 1620 or thereabouts, this is correct. Before the early 17th century, line-of-battle was not consistently used as a tactic. Prior to mid-16th century, the technology to deliver a powerful broadside wasn't in place -- they hadn't worked out the tricks of watertight gunports, so broadside cannon tended to be higher and smaller, if I remember correctly.

My source on this, who also makes the argument that galleys were a better gun platform through the late 16th century, is Guilmartin's Galleons and Galleys. I'll check that when I get home.
 
Great history and thoughts above.
But remember that the AI is likely to be mediocre at best. There's fat chance of ever getting it to do quirky manouvers.
Remember what the developers had to resort in EU3 - no attrition, AI knowing where your ships are without line of sight...
 
Venetians had a higher ship-to-cannon ratio than everybody else but I never knew it was ever taken to such an extreme :wacko:. I can't imagine such a thing would have been very useful in anything other than a full-on melee. Was it at Lepanto?

Yes. 8 of the big guns were used in a round, wooden structure, like a tower on the bow. And as you may guess, after 1600 they vanished in the outskirts of history. Having a model of ship, which needs 500 men and more, is a very uncommercial thing. ;)
There are also some models or sketches of it on the internet. Some are a little bit romanticized, but the order of the guns are mostly correct. In the ship lists, "San Lorenzo" is mostly named "Bragadina" because of the captain who commanded the ship. It's only a bit irritating that there were two commanders with the name Bragadino (Antonio and Ambrogio) which were both under the command of Agostino Barbarigo. Both had a "Bragadina" under their command, so it can be confusing.

Fleets are going to play a bigger part in the new tradesystem so navies should be way more important in this game.

Great news! :) I'm curious if we see convoys like the mude, guarding merchant ships to their ports.
 
How would you feel about abstracting galleys in a similar way to how convoys are handled in HOI3?
 
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Sorry for bumping, but I still would be interested in Chamboozer's opinion on this:

How would you feel about abstracting galleys in a similar way to how convoys are handled in HOI3?
 
Interesting posts. A few points:

1. Yes, galleys were better gunships, and the earlier you go, the truer this is. They started mounting heavy (that is, anti-ship rather than anti-personnel) guns effectively, well before sailing ships did so. In my current tables, I start the boost in 1465, vs 1540.

2. It is correct that the galleons were also designed for ahead fire, like galleys. The bows of galleons were designed similar to galleys and galleasses (hence the name), their main guns were set forward, and they fought in line abeam, like galleys.

3. Until the galleons were developed (and really, for some time after) galleys were seen as inherently superior. And not just in restricted waters, but in all coastal waters, period. The difference was solely in the fact that, in places like the Channel, there were more days when they couldn't operate because of weather, but when they could, they ruled.

4. The one partial exception to the point in (3) was the Carrack. While unable to beat galleys in a gun duel (their only heavy guns were usually in the stern, and thus hard to bring to bear), their high sides gave their anti-personnel guns a good shot at galleys' crews, plus making them more difficult to board. (Note that ramming was not really a factor in sinking ships in this era. It was the classical, not the late-mediaeval/renaissance galley which relied on an underwater ram. The later ships relied on boarding and small arms, plus eventually the guns mentioned above.)

5. Broadside action was a 17th C development. It wasn't until then that gun crews used recoil to roll back the weapon for reloading; previously they were bound tight against the side of the ship. From this followed the use of the line of battle. In my tech tables, I start the process of beefing up big/light gunnery in 1628, ending in 1689. (Note that all these comments on my tables just refer to the best I can make out for the dates involved; I'm not asserting that any of this is flat-out correct.)

So, one thing which might help would be a specific rock-paper-scissors type factor, so that pre-gun galleys would beat all until the carrack shows up, then gun-galleys rule until the rise of galleons, and lose increasingly against the improving types of bigs until the classic 2-deckers take over in the mid-17th C. That's a lot of what I've been trying to do in RM.

One minor point: Almost all battles, under sail or oars, were fought near land. It was very rare to have a battle in what we see as a full-sea zone, except small single or few ship actions.

I had a proposal for blockades when EUIII was 1st announced. I'm going to try to find it.