Naval Doctrines & Positioning

[Talliarthe]

I would have posted this on the Core site, but the forums there don't like me...

Anyhow, related to this thread..

http://www.terranova.dk/viewtopic.php?t=1340


A couple questions:

What is the difference between the min positioning value and the max positioning value that is associated with each ship class? I've searched these forums (which is rather difficult considering the lack of search functionality) and I've looked at the naval primer on the wiki. And I haven't been able to find a good answer to this question. All I know is that having a high positioning value displayed in combat is a good thing. The value that is displayed seems to be the average of the ships that are in combat, with possible modifiers for leader skill/traits & encryption decrytion techs (these appear to only have small affects on the end positioning value though). In the CORE naval doctrines tree. There is the high morale/low org path, which looks like a philosophy of independent ship operations. With these doctorines comes a high negitive modifier to max positioning. So if you are playing Japan you may have a possible position modifier of 65<>15 or something (15 being the "max").

Now the cruisers, destroyers & battleships normally have roughly the same positioning range. I've had groups of say... 15 destroyers, 3 cruisers and 2 battleships and ended up having a position value of ~19 or so when I engaged an opposing fleet. When going up against a US task force of 5 cruisers and supporting ships (10 dds and a couple light cruisers) they normally have a 55-60 positioning value. The result of this rather large dissparity in positioning values during the battle pretty much allows the US to destroy the Japanese fleet while taking little to no damage (I've had large numbers of BB's whiped out by heavy cruiser fleets).

So... from someone who knows what the positioning values mean... Are the min & max values of positioning there to define a "range" that is possible at the start of an engagement? Or is there a way to "pick" the minimum positioning value at the beginning of a battle?

What is the historical reasoning behind the rather large hit to max positioning in some of the naval doctrines that the Japanese & Italians (not sure if there are others) seem to be stuck with? In looking at the names of the doctrines I can kinda see how they apply to those countries and their respective views on naval warfare however, the whole positioning thing I don't get...

Thanks

 

[unmerged(49614)]

Well it seems to be a big bug to me. It was rather annoying when I had built up a new battleship fleet as Japan and I end up getting crushed by the British navy, due to the fact that my own battleships are busy shooting at each other.

A min<>max value of 65<>15 means a constant 15. This pretty much dooms any attempt to rule the seas for countries with Independent Destroyers, Independent Cruisers or Maneuver Battle. Hell even skill 6 Yamamoto failed to close the range with enemy carriers.

 

[Ghost_dk]

I'll let Matedow and the other naval people answer on the positioning but as the administrator I would like to know what kind of trouble you have experienced regarding terranova.dk?

 

[Talliarthe]

I'll let Matedow and the other naval people answer on the positioning but as the administrator I would like to know what kind of trouble you have experienced regarding terranova.dk?

Hi Ghost. I registered on the forums but I never got an activation email. I did however get the CORE newsletter.

.... And in the middle of writing this I tried logging onto the CORE forums again and well it worked (I could have sworn that I needed an activiation link, oh well)

Anyhow, thanks for forcing me to try logging in again And I see that mateDow has a min/max position post he responded to.

 

[Ghost_dk]

good to hear that everything is working out now

 

[unmerged(50430)]

And I see that mateDow has a min/max position post he responded to.

hi -- could you tell me where mateDow's min/max post is? i *still* don't understand how the naval positioning system works (and not for lack of looking around), and frankly had given up trying to find out 'til i read your post. can someone please explain to me how the following can occur:

i had a stack of submarines in combat w/ a British surface fleet. For whatever reason, the British fleet was able to stay outside of my sub's firing range for the entire combat, which means my subs didn't do a nick of damage to them. Nevertheless, my fleet's positioning values were consistently *higher* than the enemy's for the whole combat How can it be that my sub stack's positioning can be "51%" and the enemy's "42%" when the distance between the opposing fleets is, say, "14.5 km," which is entirely outside the range of submarine fire, and thus entirely to the advantage of the surface vessels??

 

[MateDow]

It is over in the offsite forum. Unfortunately, it deals with the question of surface ships. I am trying to determine the answer to your question for submarines.

I am looking at some things to see if there is a bug before I respond to your question specifically. I am not ignoring you, but I am trying get a satisfactory answer for you.

 

[Talliarthe]

hi -- could you tell me where mateDow's min/max post is? i *still* don't understand how the naval positioning system works (and not for lack of looking around), and frankly had given up trying to find out 'til i read your post. can someone please explain to me how the following can occur:

i had a stack of submarines in combat w/ a British surface fleet. For whatever reason, the British fleet was able to stay outside of my sub's firing range for the entire combat, which means my subs didn't do a nick of damage to them. Nevertheless, my fleet's positioning values were consistently *higher* than the enemy's for the whole combat How can it be that my sub stack's positioning can be "51%" and the enemy's "42%" when the distance between the opposing fleets is, say, "14.5 km," which is entirely outside the range of submarine fire, and thus entirely to the advantage of the surface vessels??

If you have doomsday there is some information in the manual regarding fleet action and the affect position has on the outcome. Was quite enlightening for me.

As for your sub issue, I've had the same problem with groups of subs. I tried to get some more information on it through play testing but HOI doesn't really have a good mechanism for closed box testing that I can find (Haven't tried an MP game). I was able to make some inferences from my experience. It seemed that higher class subs where more likely to "stand-off" and not close, while lower class subs (lvl 2's most of the time) seemed more likely to close with enemy fleets. Whether this was do to my earlier subs being "chased" down during battle or what, I don't know.

In one case I noticed that my group of lvl5 subs was not closing and the distance between the fleets was constant at a range just beyond the attack range of the subs. Now I had another group of lvl 6 subs coming off the production line and their listed attack range was greater than the one listed in the previously mentioned battle. However when I sent them out to patrol (can't remember the mission type) and they encountered an enemy squadron the same problem occured except the distance between the fleets had increased again to just outside the range of the subs.

Soooo... I haven't been able to draw any definate conclusions from all of this information. Are their instances where a sub fleet will choose not to engage an enemy fleet in combat? And thus stay out of firing range? Is it dependent on mission type (convoy raiding meaning they avoid battle if possible). The stats (visibility/speed?) of the sub seem to play some role as well in whether or not they engage (lower less able subs being "chased" down? by enemy task forces)

Here is the Min/Max position thread that mateDow posted in:

http://www.terranova.dk/viewtopic.php?t=1430

I'm not sure if I agree with his reasoning behind the min positioning value (just haven't seen any evidence of it in game), but the idea itself does make sense. So the whole concept (that of min positioning) could be a bug in the game...

 

[unmerged(49614)]

The problem is that increasing Min Positioning while decreasing Max Positioning only decreases the overall positioning. For example the Japanese fleets will have a constant 15% positioning due to the fact that they have 15% as Max positioning, even though they have 65% as Min Positioning.

When you consider the effects that positioning has on naval combat, then you can understand what sorts of effects the 15% positioning has on the performance of your fleet. In fact your best choice in ruling the seas as Japan is to crank out huge amounts of Fubuki-class destroyers and swamp the enemy with numbers in night battles. Currently Japanese capital ships have a bad habit of going down fast due to the poor positioning, so it kinda makes building them rather worthless.

 

[dec152000]

Hi,

Indeed having effectivelly low positioning values is a quick way to lose your fleet. One really nasty side effect is getting shot at by your ships. Even with fairly "normal" values I've personally had Bismark sink Admiral Hipper. And if the Max Positioning value is overiding the Min Positioning value resulting in 15% positioning that will not be good for performance at all.

mm

 

[MateDow]

...When you consider the effects that positioning has on naval combat, then you can understand what sorts of effects the 15% positioning has on the performance of your fleet. In fact your best choice in ruling the seas as Japan is to crank out huge amounts of Fubuki-class destroyers and swamp the enemy with numbers in night battles. Currently Japanese capital ships have a bad habit of going down fast due to the poor positioning, so it kinda makes building them rather worthless.

Isn't that fairly historical? The Japanese did best with large numbers of destroyers in close range battles. Their heavier ships suffered in the short range night battles that were common early in the war.

 

[unmerged(49614)]

To a degree yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the positioning isn't working properly. Due to the poor positioning value only a fraction of your fleet will actually be firing, while the British and American fleets will have a majority of their ships firing. Add to this the fact that your ships will most likely target screens or friendly ships while their ships will concentrate on your battleships/carriers.

I haven't tried playing as the Allies against an AI Japan, but something tells me I'd wipe them out rather easily due to the horrible positioning.

 

[dec152000]

Isn't that fairly historical? The Japanese did best with large numbers of destroyers in close range battles. Their heavier ships suffered in the short range night battles that were common early in the war.

Hi,

I'm wondering exactly what you mean by this comment. I just don't see this as being generally true. A perfect example of the opposite are the results at Savo Island:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/btl_sav.htm

mm