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Needed: "generic" events based on historical events

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unmerged(8642)

El Caudillito
Apr 9, 2002
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Ok, so only the first generation in each scenario will be historical. As has been suggested the only historical events that can occur are those that occurred in the first generation. So what we need are specific events that can happen to certain dynastys or any dynasty controlling a certain territory that are similar to real life historical events. Obviously things like the plague, etc. are easy but what important specific events can be put in the game in a way that they can occur to various families and how???
 
Excommunications & papal interdicts & bishops' fulminations? Those could be specific to a family.

Or do you want events for a particular territory? Like crop failures, peasant uprisings, etc.

Or even more specific?
 
Originally posted by Damocles
I would say that a VERY important random event would be...

Sons, daughters, wives dying. Or even yourself. Like Beloved Mary kicked off due to a lingering sickness, and Little Jimmy forgot to lower his visor while jousting.
Click to expand...

Ah Little Jimmy. How many times was he told to lower his visor when engaging in dangerous play. Kids just never listen.:D

I would imagine Papal interdicts and excommunications will not need to be events because they will be the result of interactions between dynasties and the Pope.:)
 
Well this will be tricky. If you dont have the historical conditions or charecters its hard to say if an event will absolutely happen.

I think the Mongols and the Plaque are two that will be in and will not be governed by who is in power, but trying to get specific events of history widdled down to absolutles of fact is going to be hard.

For argument sake you can say that the various "Magna Carta's" signed over the years could in fact be represented by the social and economic changes of the time. Or if your constantly at war your barons may want to rebel and you may have to have an event like a "Magna Carta" happen.

But say that the "Magna Carta" signed at Runnymede should be an event is hard, because there are no guarantee's that france invades in the little known invasion in the early 13th century. France had almost 35,000 troops as an occupying force in England prior to the Magna Carta at Runnymede, and there are no guarantee's that a charecter in place of Fitzwalter will stir up trouble with your barons.

So my point is we have historical conditions to start, but after that its a fantasy outcome with a frame work of Medievil conditions, hard to reproduce historical events under that model.
 
OK. What about:

- Tax collector killed by mobs (loss of cash, stability hit)

- Monastery plundered by marauders (lose tax base in province)

- Appearance of freethinkers/troublemaking priests (stability hit)

- Discovery of holy relics (saints's bones, etc.) (stability improvement)

- Monarch seduced by astrologer/necromancer (lose some abilities temporarily)

- Seduction of son by your vassals (prompting a rebellion & triple stability hit)?

- Seduction of son by a no-good wench of neighboring dynasty (prompting choice between royal marriage & stability hit or, if you deny, a rebellion & double stability hit).

- Daughter's dowry rejected (worsen relations)

(Incidentally, do we have to provide dowries for our daughters?)

- Widow/minor/lunatic inherits your baron's estate (increase revenues from one of your provinces)

- Chartering of town (population increase, slider movements)

- Chartering of a merchant guild (huge dollop of cash, but long run loss in tax base, slider movements?)

- Chartering of a university

- Calling of Estates-General/Parliament (very expensive investment with some slider movements and improvement in tax base, can be denied with huge rebellion & stability loss)

- Italian banker sets up shop (increase loan size)

- Debasement of coinage (inflation & stability hit)

- Establishment of Fair (dollop of cash, slider movements)

- Currency reform (deflation but huge cost & stability hit)

- Troubador songs about your queen go platinum (stability improvement)

OK, I'm beginning to "reach" here. :)
 
well actually....

Those are some pretty good random events, well some of them anyway. But i was more thinking along the lines of the plague, well maybe more specific than the plague. Stuff like magna carta. That was what i was having a problem thinking about. How to make specific events like the magna carta generic enough to be an event in the game. Maybe some prolonged period of unrest among vassals due to certain decisions taken by a monarch would eventually cause there demanding some sort of legal charter. But i was thinking about things like Hanseatic League forming, formation of various orders (both military and religious), etc. Obviously so of those things would be easier to be random events than others, but certain defining battles -manzikert etc. would be difficult to put in the game. But certain events like creating parliament, or levying certain taxes causing various rebellions might be easier, give options to leaders of certain territories or maybe just dynasties with large territories.

Also, a really important series of events should be dealing with the church and the various "councils" they had setting doctrine and stuff like moving the papacy to avignon (should certain powerful dynasties with enough holy points be able to move the papacy to their countries?). I think these should all come up as events with a certain choice following history's outcome.

Also certain historical figures should definitely come up like thomas aquinas, st francis of assisi, etc because they aren't necessarily linked to which dynasty controlled which territory and what policies were put in place.

But I am not too familiar with very specific events (obviously i'm not up on history like most of you are but thats what i think is neat about eu2 etc you get to learn more about places you ordinarily wouldnt think about ) but some of the one's i've looked up on the internet through a quick search are the "Jacquerie" revolt in France while the king was a captive in England, Charles of Anjou's tax on Sicily leads to revolt and reverts rule to Aragon, German princes abolishing the hereditary claim to the throne and establishing the right to elect new rulers in the 1100s. Stuff like that.

Does that make sense? Does anyone else think these kinds of things need to be in the game? I'm just worried there won't be as much of a historical feel to this game and it'll be too much of a fantasy game.

Opinions? as if i have to ask :)
 
Here's one:

Harsh winter

This year winter has come early and is much worse than average.
Decrease in farm income (shorter growing season)
Increase in peasant unrest
 
Re: well actually....

Originally posted by roachclip76
Those are some pretty good random events, well some of them anyway. But i was more thinking along the lines of the plague, well maybe more specific than the plague. Stuff like magna carta. That was what i was having a problem thinking about. How to make specific events like the magna carta generic enough to be an event in the game. Maybe some prolonged period of unrest among vassals due to certain decisions taken by a monarch would eventually cause there demanding some sort of legal charter. But i was thinking about things like Hanseatic League forming, formation of various orders (both military and religious), etc. Obviously so of those things would be easier to be random events than others, but certain defining battles -manzikert etc. would be difficult to put in the game. But certain events like creating parliament, or levying certain taxes causing various rebellions might be easier, give options to leaders of certain territories or maybe just dynasties with large territories.

Also, a really important series of events should be dealing with the church and the various "councils" they had setting doctrine and stuff like moving the papacy to avignon (should certain powerful dynasties with enough holy points be able to move the papacy to their countries?). I think these should all come up as events with a certain choice following history's outcome.

Also certain historical figures should definitely come up like thomas aquinas, st francis of assisi, etc because they aren't necessarily linked to which dynasty controlled which territory and what policies were put in place.

But I am not too familiar with very specific events (obviously i'm not up on history like most of you are but thats what i think is neat about eu2 etc you get to learn more about places you ordinarily wouldnt think about ) but some of the one's i've looked up on the internet through a quick search are the "Jacquerie" revolt in France while the king was a captive in England, Charles of Anjou's tax on Sicily leads to revolt and reverts rule to Aragon, German princes abolishing the hereditary claim to the throne and establishing the right to elect new rulers in the 1100s. Stuff like that.

Does that make sense? Does anyone else think these kinds of things need to be in the game? I'm just worried there won't be as much of a historical feel to this game and it'll be too much of a fantasy game.

Opinions? as if i have to ask :)
Click to expand...

Well I understood what you meant Roachclip, and I think its going to be very hard to reproduce historical events based on historical charecters actions. "Charles of Anjous tax on Sicily leads to a revolt and reverts to rule to Aragon" your quote.

Anjou maynot be one of Charles territories, Charles may not even be in the game, Sicily may not be tied to Aragon in anyway, Aragon may be annexed by Castile.

This is why there will be scenarios to play out historical events but its not going to be reproducable at every phase. Its like HOI in the 36 scenario. You start to prepare Russia and the US for WWII on 1/1/36 your not going to have pinpoint historical accuracy, nor should you. So I think you need to be more encompassing to a macro event system, like what was listed by abdul. Hoping that the papcy moves to avignon will be hard to have an event for. You might be able to recreate the conditions for that event to happen, but your going to need the AI as well to act historically where events prior to the event may not flow historically.

I think Abdul's post is pretty close to what we can expect, unless within scenarios you can have sub scenarios like "Missions" (for lack of a better term) where the player has to attempt to achieve the Magna Charter at Runnymede.
 
Crusades???

And what about the crusades? How are they going to be handled? They obviously can't be exactly what happen IRL but you're gonna have to be able to have some (hence the name) but i wonder for what reasons other than the generic "regain lost ground in east". It'll definitely be interesting to see what happens.
 
Re: Crusades???

Originally posted by roachclip76
And what about the crusades? How are they going to be handled? They obviously can't be exactly what happen IRL but you're gonna have to be able to have some (hence the name) but i wonder for what reasons other than the generic "regain lost ground in east". It'll definitely be interesting to see what happens.
Click to expand...

Loss of territory in the Levant was always a good reason (as if the Pope needed a reason) to call a Crusade. I'm pretty sure that with the Muslims being handled by the AI they will reproduce some sort of historic or semi-historic behavior which will upset the Roman Pontiff enough for him to call a Crusade.:)
 
Crusades: Event or Intrinsic

There were many "Crusades" that did not have the Levant as a cause or as a destination. Mentioning the Glory of Christian Jerusalem during recruiting season never hurt the result, however. Crusades were also called to further whatever goals were at hand. Whatever the player is trying to do, be it conquer Tunis or Tannenberg... its a crusade.

A very good point was made about result specific events being disjunct with dynastical personalities, and the challange of modelling this. It is well enough for little James to have wound up with a broken lance through his open visior, but had the visor been closed: How do we predict the effect of adolescent James on The Sicilian Vespers (for example).

It seems natural that the quality of a particular leader could be taken into account when determining the severity of an event. Thus, if James younger brother Freddy is on the throne, then the negative effects of the revolt will be lesser. (given: James early death was indeed a good thing).

The main point is therefore Meta-Events which vary in relation to one or more qualities of the Ruler. This is possible, I think.
 
Re: Crusades: Event or Intrinsic

Originally posted by iGenovese
..............

The main point is therefore Meta-Events which vary in relation to one or more qualities of the Ruler. This is possible, I think.
Click to expand...

Yep. You got it exactly.

Why would Freddy be on the throne if his older brother James were still alive? Or did I misread the intention there?:confused:
 
James Unfortunate Accident

Yes. My example is that Freddy is on the throne only if James gets a lance through the eye-socket. The idea is that Freddy gets along better with the peasants than lofty James. Therefore, when an event (Sicilian Vespers) is triggered, the resulting chaos is mitigated somewhat by the skill of whomever is in power.

I am not putting any numbers in the example, because I do not know how CK is to work in that regard, and I did not want to make it sound just like EU2.

Underneath, you can see that an event such as Sicilian Vespers is indeed static and cannot be avoided, only mitigated. Now, you might suspect that Sicilian Vespers was intrinsic to the Norman rule of Sicily, or you might surmise that Sicilian Vesper was intrinsic to Sicily (regardless of who rules the island). At this, I will not make a guess, but ANY given even can be modelled one of two ways in that respect: by region or dynasty.

I think that there will be lots of both kinds.
 
Events

There are two parts to this post first there are some suggested events and secondly there is a suggestion for how the EU event system could be slightly modified to allow more complex random events.

---------------EVENTS--------------
Member of Royal Familiy flees to neighbour (Duke of Albany[Scotland]->England, Future Kings Richard I[England] & John I[England] -> France[sepratly]). Ideally this event would allow some interaction between the two countries (either country being able to effect the outcome). The fleed to country should be at least as large as the country that you fled from (if possible). This event would give some leverage to the fleed to country over the fleed from country (possibly a CB, cash (ransom), or a lowering of support for the current ruler).

Famous bandit causing problems (think Robin Hood). You can ignore (lose stability, lose provincial tax/trade value), promise reward (pay $), send in the troops (rebelion/lose troops). As added extra a reward could either make the problem worse (bandit gains extra fame) or solve the problem (more likely).

Loss of treasury. "While you and you court travel your treasure has run into an accedent and significant parts have been lost. Some of the court's records are also lost." (King John I [England] lost significant amounts of treasure and royal records in the Fens near the end of his Reign). This would decrese royal authority (loss of crown's, ...) and of course loss of $.

Contention for the thrown (Think about Scotland after the death of Alexander III). You can appoint a king (with a significant loss of power), start a civil war (lower stability and lots of rebelions) or ask for abitration (triggering another event for a nearby larger country with which you have good relations [if possible]). The other event would allow the target country to choose a strong king, choose a weak king, or to vasilise your country (with weak king).

Marrage of "royal" ward. - allows for consolodation of power with nobility.

Nobles press for war with foreign power (think of English kings being presured for war with France [expecially Edward IV]). You could either declare war (giving you extra power, cash, troops, stability, lower revolt risk, extra military aid [EU II +ve military rating]), or refuse (decrease stability, increase revolt risk, decrease tax/cash (short term), lower support from nobility/peasents [who supports the war?]). A possible 3rd choice is to direct their anger at a thrid part and focus the "hawk's" attention their (war with 3rd country, much less support, no negitives).

-------RANDOM EVENTS TRIGGERING OTHER EVENTS---------
Some of these events want some interaction between different countries. This would be similar to how events like "Anchluss" were handled in HoI, but for random events. Basically you want a random event (event 1) to be able to trigger another event (event 2) for a specified country, and you want the new event (event 2) to be able to refer to the triggering events country (using a number similar to how -3 works)

As an example think about the EU II event about Border Troubles:

# initial border trouble event
event = {
id = 1000
random = yes
...
action_a = {
name = "Presure them."
command = {relation = {value = -30 which = -1}} # lower relation with random country
command = {trigger = {value = 1001 which = -3}} # triger event 1001 for same country
}
action_b = {
name = "Smoth things over"
command = {stability = {value = -1}}
command = {cash = {value = -50}} # spend on diplomats
}

}

# response to provocation event
event {
id = 1001
# some special tag to say that this event can happen multiple times but is never triggerd randomly.
random = no # event can't trigger on its own
...
action_a = {
name = "Suffer their insults"
command = {stability = {value = -1}}
}
action_b = {
name = "We must stand firm"
command = {war = {which = -4}}
command = {stability = {value = 1}}
# -4 is a special value for a country tag that refers to the country who had the last event (The one that triggered this one).
}
}

This event would mean that you didn't want to increase tensions with a larger neighbour, but you could with a smaller one.

This idea would also allow some event's actions to have unknown outcomes (like bribes), you would trigger an event for the rebels (who would choose to trigger one of a number of events back for the player).



This post is long enough already, but I'll think of some more ideas and post them here later.
 
More events

Alliences forming (and combining) in front of the mongol advance (if it's going well, say past the old Soviet border).

Issues like the Magna Carta and the parlement under Simon de'Montfort [England], could be triggered by a low country prestige (or recent bad wars), and cause the nobility to get more control over the country (less centralisation in EU2 terms).

Have a Thomas Becket style event. There is a vacent bishipship and you can either appoint an aid (normally adds to your control over the church & adds $, but sometimes goes badly wrong), or let the pope select one (increase piety/relationship with pope.)

Some personalities to appear in the game could be:
Thomas Becket (Rebel against the king is declared to be a saint)
Simon de'Montford (Barony [Leicester], recovered from current occupant [E. Chester], with E. Chester & kings permission, strong & able supporter of the king, had some disputes with king, lead nobles against Henry III)
Joan of Arc (maybe too dependent on current political situation?)
Chaucer (just for flaviour, didn't have much contempary impact)

However these people maybe could be better represented by random events or game mechanics.
 
Religious events

Heretics (anti clerical movements) like the Bogomils in the Balkans, Catharans in north Italy & Albigensians in southern France. You can repress them yourself (costs $ and gains papal relations), let the pope suppress them (large incerease in lawlessness [historical for Albigensians], increase in papal relations), do nothing (sharp decrease in stability & papal relations). Later on the Hussites also fall into this category.

(end of the) Rise of the Cluniacs, making the church more respectable and forcing priests to confirm to widely held beliefs (chastity in particular).

The great Schism (two popes one in France and one in Rome). This could be an event specific to Avignon or it could be belong to the largest cathlic country.

--------Non-religious events-------
Setting up the Hanse
 
A powerful aristocrate caught torturing free people to death.

Variant 1: To bring him to trial - some unrest between aristocraths, but the growth of powers`authority between townsfolk.
Variant 2^ to keep things frozen: the reverse of described.
 
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