New Formables Nations (kind of) approved by Wiz!

[MiniaAr]

To prove that I'm not throwing out big names without proof (a bit old but still):

From this topic:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/more-formable-countries.880917/page-8

Golden Horde as a formable: Ehh, I'd prefer something like 'Tatarstan' or 'Tataria' even if it's not historical, I don't like tags that have the government form in the name and would change the name of GH if there was anything reasonable to replace it with.
Yuan: I could see this being added.
Two Sicilies: Not significant enough. Sardinia-Piedmont at least has a use in upgrading Savoy from Duchy to Kingdom, but both Naples and Sicily are Kingdoms already.
Lotharingia: Very anachronistic. Probably not.
Latin Empire: Would be a cool alternative to Jerusalem, only thing I don't like is 'Empire' in the name.
Rajputjana: Sure, why not?
Turkey: Ehh, I think some sort of non-dynastic naming for dynastic countries that turn republics would be better.

I'd like to propose a new list of potential new formables countries:

• Yuan: I know that technically the Yuan are represented by Mongolia (as the Northern Yuan), but a new tag would serve a gameplay purpose of representing a new conquest of China by Mongolian people, instead of the Manchu conquest. Conditions should be relatively similar in that one would need to unify most of Mongolia, and then get a big share of Northern China, including Beijing. I would limit the formation to countries with Mongolian, Oirat, Khalkha or Chahar cultures. The formation would give Empire rank as the Qing formation does. And it would also give access to the "unify China" CB.
  
  
• Rajputjana/Rajahstan: This would represent a successful unifications of the various Rajput pincely states (thus reserved for Rajput culture). The tag formation would give kingdom rank as many smaller states start as duchy (Dhundar, Hadoti, Jaisalmer,...). The formation would also give claims on all Rajput areas not already owned and part of the requirement.
  
  
• Rum: as in "The Sultanate of Rum". Now that the Ottomans get a specific government form, this tag formation would represent a re-unification of the major part of Anatolia by the various Turkish beyliks. The Ottomans were a special case of those beyliks, as very early they destined themselves to be a link between West and East, whereas the Turkish beyliks would probably have been content with ruling all the others.
  
  
• Rhomania/Romaniæ/Rhomaniæ (pick your prefered version): This is a tag to represent a resurgent Latin Empire (Wiz didn't like tags with ranks in their names). There are still crusader states in the Agean, namely Athens and Naxos, and Achea can be released. I would argue that catholic states that took Constantinople would try and re-form the Latin Empire over converting to orthodoxy and adopting Greek culture. Therefore, the decision could also apply to even Venice or Genoa (or all Italian culture countries?). Regarding the name, and the potential argument about confusion with Romania formed by Wallachia or Moldavia, I think this is a non-argument. Indeed, we've had in the game Munster (Irish) and Münster (German) for years, and it's more a source of fun and entertainment than confusion.
  
  
• Hansa: This one is probably a dream, but I'd like very much to see the somewhat frustrating trade league mechanics allow a successful trade league leader (more than 10 members, great trade revenues,etc...) to be able to integrate some or all of it's member states and form a more centralised country. This would likely requires events and/or difficult conditions to pull out, but a compentent played would have a nice goal to reach as a merchant republic in northern Germany (the formation should be available to a merchant republic of Westphalian culture).
  
  
• Arelate: The last HRE emperor beig crowned King of Arles was Charles IV in Luxembourg in 1365, thus really not too long before the game. It could be formed by countries either:
  With Occitan primary culture: It's fine for Provence, Avignon and Dauphiné. But a bit less troublesome for Auvergne, Berry, Toulouse (and the Knights).
  With country tag Savoy, Provence, Avignon, Dauphiné. Those were the major counties constituant of the Kingdom. One of them might take the mantle and recreate the Kingdom for itself.
  As formation requirements, the provinces of Provence, Savoy, Lyon and Dauphiné were the major one (I think). Holding 3 of those 4 should allow to recreate the kingdom. Then, it will give claims on those 3 areas: Provence, Savoy and Romandie, as well as the single province of Franche-Comté. Also, it elevates the forming country to kingdom rank.
  

What do you think?

 

[Incompetent]

• Hansa: This one is probably a dream, but I'd like very much to see the somewhat frustrating trade league mechanics allow a successful trade league leader (more than 10 members, great trade revenues,etc...) to be able to integrate some or all of it's member states and form a more centralised country. This would likely requires events and/or difficult conditions to pull out, but a compentent played would have a nice goal to reach as a merchant republic in northern Germany (the formation should be available to a merchant republic of Westphalian culture).

What do you think?

This would have to also turn you into some other kind of Republic, otherwise it would backfire due to too many provinces in states.

I'd rather go the other way: make trade leagues more viable in the longer term by giving Merchant Republics a way to dynamically generate OPMs.


China and Egypt should already exist as countries at game start; maybe Turkey as well. They're all supposedly the 'primary' nation of their respective culture, so their basic name should reflect this. Dynasty/government-type names and flags for countries should be cosmetic overrides that disappear if that form of government is overthrown for whatever reason (Mamluks needs to be a special government type, not 'Iqta').

With various possible Chinese dynasties, we don't need different tags. If you've united China, you can form 'China'. Maybe the country can be named after the dynasty as a cosmetic thing (like Muslim realms in CK2), but fundamentally, China is the country name.

 

[Sfan]

Well, Ming and Qing are China. The name China comes from Qing if I'm not mistaken so this is basically quite the same.

When seeing a superbig Serbia in the Post your Empire thread I also thought about Yugoslavia which would baiscally require Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia, or at least the capital of each of them, and give claims on the three kingdoms and maybe Albania.
I am desperately wanting a Kingdom of Madagascar since I played there, unified the Island and kept my old tag which makes no sense imho. Make the 4 countries there duchies and create the kingdom of Madagascar.
A Celtic Empire could be a cool idea but it really lacks development. But to have 3 regions out of Ireland, Scotland, Wales/Cornwall, Britanny could grant claims on the others and the Galician area as well. Probably too far behind in development though. Maybe "you and your vassals/trade companies/colonial states have a minimum of 500 development" as another condition?

Another related request would be more logical decisions when converting a save from CK2. I converted a Wendish Empire game and had the decision to form Poland which was weaker in CK2: that doesn't make any sense in an historical perspective. It should be considered like the PLC or something. I'm sure this is not the only issue. I should check my Empire of Sicily and it would probably propose me to form Italy or something.

 

[Matihood1]

Rhomania/Romaniæ/Rhomaniæ (pick your prefered version): This is a tag to represent a resurgent Latin Empire (Wiz didn't like tags with ranks in their names). There are still crusader states in the Agean, namely Athens and Naxos, and Achea can be released. I would argue that catholic states that took Constantinople would try and re-form the Latin Empire over converting to orthodoxy and adopting Greek culture. Therefore, the decision could also apply to even Venice or Genoa (or all Italian culture countries?). Regarding the name, and the potential argument about confusion with Romania formed by Wallachia or Moldavia, I think this is a non-argument. Indeed, we've had in the game Munster (Irish) and Münster (German) for years, and it's more a source of fun and entertainment than confusion.

This name is kind of forced in my opinion, especially since Byzantines also called themselves Romans. Let's just make an exception here and simply call it Latin Empire.

 

[Sfan]

Or simply Roma even if there is already the province? But we already have tgat for tons of Italian and German minors (Lucca, Pisa, Siena, Milan, Cremona, Wurzburg, Hamburg, ...) so I guess that's not a real problem.

But well, I agree with the fact this may be an exception. What you want to restore is not Roma but its empire.

 

[Woifee]

Well, Ming and Qing are China. The name China comes from Qing if I'm not mistaken so this is basically quite the same.

When seeing a superbig Serbia in the Post your Empire thread I also thought about Yugoslavia which would baiscally require Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia, or at least the capital of each of them, and give claims on the three kingdoms and maybe Albania.
I am desperately wanting a Kingdom of Madagascar since I played there, unified the Island and kept my old tag which makes no sense imho. Make the 4 countries there duchies and create the kingdom of Madagascar.
A Celtic Empire could be a cool idea but it really lacks development. But to have 3 regions out of Ireland, Scotland, Wales/Cornwall, Britanny could grant claims on the others and the Galician area as well. Probably too far behind in development though. Maybe "you and your vassals/trade companies/colonial states have a minimum of 500 development" as another condition?

Another related request would be more logical decisions when converting a save from CK2. I converted a Wendish Empire game and had the decision to form Poland which was weaker in CK2: that doesn't make any sense in an historical perspective. It should be considered like the PLC or something. I'm sure this is not the only issue. I should check my Empire of Sicily and it would probably propose me to form Italy or something.

I thought China came from the Qin dynasty wich formed the chinese empire.

 

[Sfan]

I assumed that since this was called Cathay by the Europeans during the Qin the name came later but I honestly don't know. The main point though is that China exists, it just has flavor names but there is already a way to invade it and have a CB on all of it. More events would be appreciated though like a China invaded by the Mongols again, as someone suggested, or a China invaded from the South with a dynasty ruling from the other half of China if you take enough provinces with Indochinan nations. Good challenge to be had there since you can't form the Indian empires nore Malaya.

 

[MiniaAr]

This name is kind of forced in my opinion, especially since Byzantines also called themselves Romans. Let's just make an exception here and simply call it Latin Empire.

I preferred Latin Empire as well, but Wiz was adamant in his refusal to have countries with a title in the name (Latin Empire, Turkish sultanate, etc, etc). Rhomania was the best alternative suggested in the original thread. If you have something better, it'd be great.

 

[Matihood1]

I preferred Latin Empire as well, but Wiz was adamant in his refusal to have countries with a title in the name (Latin Empire, Turkish sultanate, etc, etc). Rhomania was the best alternative suggested in the original thread. If you have something better, it'd be great.

I don't really like the name Rhomania but there's really nothing better than this so I guess it will have to do for now. It can always be changed after adding to the game in case Wiz changes his mind.

 

[Grand Historian]

This name is kind of forced in my opinion, especially since Byzantines also called themselves Romans. Let's just make an exception here and simply call it Latin Empire.

I preferred Latin Empire as well, but Wiz was adamant in his refusal to have countries with a title in the name (Latin Empire, Turkish sultanate, etc, etc). Rhomania was the best alternative suggested in the original thread. If you have something better, it'd be great.

I'd prefer Latin Empire as well, but I'd say Romaniae would be the best term available: Rho is a distinctively Greek spelling and the official name of the Latin Empire was Imperium Rominae. Also, Achaea wouldn't be able be able to form it; it's released as a Greek/Orthodox nation, and if it was changed in the history files it wouldn't be able to be released.

 

[Warial]

I assumed that since this was called Cathay by the Europeans during the Qin the name came later but I honestly don't know.

Nitpick: Cathay comes from the name of Khitans who ruled a sinicized empire during Northern Song dynasty. It has nothing to do with Qin. For Romans Chinese were knowns as Sinae or Seres.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Personally I always felt Rajputana was a really poor name for a unification tag. Wouldn't mind something for the Rajputs to form per se though.

Keep up the discussion though, more formables may well be added at some point and threads like these are great reference material when doing so

 

[Grand Historian]

Nitpick: Cathay comes from the name of Khitans who ruled a sinicized empire during Northern Song dynasty. It has nothing to do with Qin. For Romans Chinese were knowns as Sinae or Seres.

Yep. The Latin word for tea is even Sinensem.

 

[Hipster_on_Ice]

For all of the Latin Empire stuff, what about Latin Constantinople? It gets the point across without appending anything or being unclear.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

I preferred Latin Empire as well, but Wiz was adamant in his refusal to have countries with a title in the name (Latin Empire, Turkish sultanate, etc, etc). Rhomania was the best alternative suggested in the original thread. If you have something better, it'd be great.

I don't really like the name Rhomania but there's really nothing better than this so I guess it will have to do for now. It can always be changed after adding to the game in case Wiz changes his mind.

This might sound as if I disliked Wiz(not true!), but he doesn't have much to say about EU4 anymore so we can count on seeing both tags named "Latin Empire", "Golden Horde" etc. and special governments - Prussia and Ottos in the next patch. Please, bring back American republic!

Now, the only thing that is needed is dynamic country names... I love me some republic of Golden Horde, I tell you!

 

[Matihood1]

Now, the only thing that is needed is dynamic country names... I love me some republic of Golden Horde, I tell you!

Oh yes, please. I'd finally be able to make a Polish–Lithuanian–Muscovite Commonwealth and show russkies who's the true ruler of the entire Rus. But I think this is slightly off-topic so I'll stop here.

 

[VitMatejicek]

To prove that I'm not throwing out big names without proof (a bit old but still):

From this topic:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/more-formable-countries.880917/page-8


I'd like to propose a new list of potential new formables countries:

• Yuan: I know that technically the Yuan are represented by Mongolia (as the Northern Yuan), but a new tag would serve a gameplay purpose of representing a new conquest of China by Mongolian people, instead of the Manchu conquest. Conditions should be relatively similar in that one would need to unify most of Mongolia, and then get a big share of Northern China, including Beijing. I would limit the formation to countries with Mongolian, Oirat, Khalkha or Chahar cultures. The formation would give Empire rank as the Qing formation does. And it would also give access to the "unify China" CB.
  
  
• Rajputjana/Rajahstan: This would represent a successful unifications of the various Rajput pincely states (thus reserved for Rajput culture). The tag formation would give kingdom rank as many smaller states start as duchy (Dhundar, Hadoti, Jaisalmer,...). The formation would also give claims on all Rajput areas not already owned and part of the requirement.
  
  
• Rum: as in "The Sultanate of Rum". Now that the Ottomans get a specific government form, this tag formation would represent a re-unification of the major part of Anatolia by the various Turkish beyliks. The Ottomans were a special case of those beyliks, as very early they destined themselves to be a link between West and East, whereas the Turkish beyliks would probably have been content with ruling all the others.
  
  
• Rhomania/Romaniæ/Rhomaniæ (pick your prefered version): This is a tag to represent a resurgent Latin Empire (Wiz didn't like tags with ranks in their names). There are still crusader states in the Agean, namely Athens and Naxos, and Achea can be released. I would argue that catholic states that took Constantinople would try and re-form the Latin Empire over converting to orthodoxy and adopting Greek culture. Therefore, the decision could also apply to even Venice or Genoa (or all Italian culture countries?). Regarding the name, and the potential argument about confusion with Romania formed by Wallachia or Moldavia, I think this is a non-argument. Indeed, we've had in the game Munster (Irish) and Münster (German) for years, and it's more a source of fun and entertainment than confusion.
  
  
• Hansa: This one is probably a dream, but I'd like very much to see the somewhat frustrating trade league mechanics allow a successful trade league leader (more than 10 members, great trade revenues,etc...) to be able to integrate some or all of it's member states and form a more centralised country. This would likely requires events and/or difficult conditions to pull out, but a compentent played would have a nice goal to reach as a merchant republic in northern Germany (the formation should be available to a merchant republic of Westphalian culture).

What do you think?

The idea of Lotharingia seems quite reasonable to me since the historical rulers of Burgundy and Lorraine tried forming it but failed. It should be formed as Burgundy or anyone having a capital in Westphalia (not bound to Westphalian culture). Would seem pretty logical to me.

 

[Darkath]

@Trin Tragula :

About Mongolia the situation is tricky because of the the start date which is just before the height of power of the Oirats, which was actually short lived as the Yuan restoration and fall of the oirats happened soon after in 1479.

I would say the Mongolia tag existing right now should be renamed Yuan, as the rulers are still from the house Borjigin (the direct descendants of Gengis and Kubilai !). Mongolia would be an alternate formable cultural union of all Mongol cultures if you unite them, but shouldn't exist at game start.

Technically the Yuan never really completely died. They were expelled from china back to the Khalkha region, and they were under the Oirats rule for a while, but in 1479 the the Dayan Emperor (Great Yuan) of the house Borjigin already restored the Yuan empire in Mongolia and stabilized it for a hundred year.

Given that 1479 is pretty close to 1444 it would be acceptable to acknowledge the fact that Yuan was on the brink of coming back as a significant power in Asia.

 

[Grand Historian]

The idea of Lotharingia seems quite reasonable to me since the historical rulers of Burgundy and Lorraine tried forming it but failed. It should be formed as Burgundy or anyone having a capital in Westphalia (not bound to Westphalian culture). Would seem pretty logical to me.

The Dukes of Burgundy tried elevating Burgundy into a separate Kingdom, yes, but it would have most likely just remained Burgundy had they been successful.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

The idea of Lotharingia seems quite reasonable to me since the historical rulers of Burgundy and Lorraine tried forming it but failed. It should be formed as Burgundy or anyone having a capital in Westphalia (not bound to Westphalian culture). Would seem pretty logical to me.

Rulers of Brabant also claimed the title of rulers of Lotharingia. Pretty much the whole Low Countries used to be called "Lower Lotharingia", so it would make sense for all the Flemish/Dutch/Walloon countries to be able to form either Lotharingia or Netherlands, with Lotharingia not having special government and needing more provinces to form, but it would grant empire status and permanent claims on Low Countries, Lorraine, Burgundy, Savoy, Provence and Northern Italy. Maybe add some neat national ideas to the mix to make it more rewarding.

@Trin Tragula :

About Mongolia the situation is tricky because of the the start date which is just before the height of power of the Oirats, which was actually short lived as the Yuan restoration and fall of the oirats happened soon after in 1479.

I would say the Mongolia tag existing right now should be renamed Yuan, as the rulers are still from the house Borjigin (the direct descendants of Gengis and Kubilai !). Mongolia would be an alternate formable cultural union of all Mongol cultures if you unite them, but shouldn't exist at game start.

Technically the Yuan never really completely died. They were expelled from china back to the Khalkha region, and they were under the Oirats rule for a while, but in 1479 the the Dayan Emperor (Great Yuan) of the house Borjigin already restored the Yuan empire in Mongolia and stabilized it for a hundred year.

Given that 1479 is pretty close to 1444 it would be acceptable to acknowledge the fact that Yuan was on the brink of coming back as a significant power in Asia.

It could go two ways - either have Yuan at the start and make Mongolia formable cultural union or keep Mongolia as Mongolia and make Yuan a formable nation. Either way, both these tags could be formable, or rather reformable(like Austria, France and Poland), with each forming decision giving different cultural union and set of permanent claims. Personally I have very little knowledge of Northeast Asian affairs, but I'd have Mongolia at the game's start. As you've said, Yuan restoration was close but did't make it.

Oh, and as we're talking about steppe nomads - Golden Horde could be reformable nation as well. The title of Khan of Golden Horde has been very prestigious for a few good centuries of EU's timeline, some horde that owned more important provinces of former GH(Crimea, Sarai, Nogai, Chimgi-Tura etc.) would surely take on this title.