New Formables Nations (kind of) approved by Wiz!

[MiniaAr]

To prove that I'm not throwing out big names without proof (a bit old but still):

From this topic:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/more-formable-countries.880917/page-8

Golden Horde as a formable: Ehh, I'd prefer something like 'Tatarstan' or 'Tataria' even if it's not historical, I don't like tags that have the government form in the name and would change the name of GH if there was anything reasonable to replace it with.
Yuan: I could see this being added.
Two Sicilies: Not significant enough. Sardinia-Piedmont at least has a use in upgrading Savoy from Duchy to Kingdom, but both Naples and Sicily are Kingdoms already.
Lotharingia: Very anachronistic. Probably not.
Latin Empire: Would be a cool alternative to Jerusalem, only thing I don't like is 'Empire' in the name.
Rajputjana: Sure, why not?
Turkey: Ehh, I think some sort of non-dynastic naming for dynastic countries that turn republics would be better.

I'd like to propose a new list of potential new formables countries:

• Yuan: I know that technically the Yuan are represented by Mongolia (as the Northern Yuan), but a new tag would serve a gameplay purpose of representing a new conquest of China by Mongolian people, instead of the Manchu conquest. Conditions should be relatively similar in that one would need to unify most of Mongolia, and then get a big share of Northern China, including Beijing. I would limit the formation to countries with Mongolian, Oirat, Khalkha or Chahar cultures. The formation would give Empire rank as the Qing formation does. And it would also give access to the "unify China" CB.
  
  
• Rajputjana/Rajahstan: This would represent a successful unifications of the various Rajput pincely states (thus reserved for Rajput culture). The tag formation would give kingdom rank as many smaller states start as duchy (Dhundar, Hadoti, Jaisalmer,...). The formation would also give claims on all Rajput areas not already owned and part of the requirement.
  
  
• Rum: as in "The Sultanate of Rum". Now that the Ottomans get a specific government form, this tag formation would represent a re-unification of the major part of Anatolia by the various Turkish beyliks. The Ottomans were a special case of those beyliks, as very early they destined themselves to be a link between West and East, whereas the Turkish beyliks would probably have been content with ruling all the others.
  
  
• Rhomania/Romaniæ/Rhomaniæ (pick your prefered version): This is a tag to represent a resurgent Latin Empire (Wiz didn't like tags with ranks in their names). There are still crusader states in the Agean, namely Athens and Naxos, and Achea can be released. I would argue that catholic states that took Constantinople would try and re-form the Latin Empire over converting to orthodoxy and adopting Greek culture. Therefore, the decision could also apply to even Venice or Genoa (or all Italian culture countries?). Regarding the name, and the potential argument about confusion with Romania formed by Wallachia or Moldavia, I think this is a non-argument. Indeed, we've had in the game Munster (Irish) and Münster (German) for years, and it's more a source of fun and entertainment than confusion.
  
  
• Hansa: This one is probably a dream, but I'd like very much to see the somewhat frustrating trade league mechanics allow a successful trade league leader (more than 10 members, great trade revenues,etc...) to be able to integrate some or all of it's member states and form a more centralised country. This would likely requires events and/or difficult conditions to pull out, but a compentent played would have a nice goal to reach as a merchant republic in northern Germany (the formation should be available to a merchant republic of Westphalian culture).
  
  
• Arelate: The last HRE emperor beig crowned King of Arles was Charles IV in Luxembourg in 1365, thus really not too long before the game. It could be formed by countries either:
  With Occitan primary culture: It's fine for Provence, Avignon and Dauphiné. But a bit less troublesome for Auvergne, Berry, Toulouse (and the Knights).
  With country tag Savoy, Provence, Avignon, Dauphiné. Those were the major counties constituant of the Kingdom. One of them might take the mantle and recreate the Kingdom for itself.
  As formation requirements, the provinces of Provence, Savoy, Lyon and Dauphiné were the major one (I think). Holding 3 of those 4 should allow to recreate the kingdom. Then, it will give claims on those 3 areas: Provence, Savoy and Romandie, as well as the single province of Franche-Comté. Also, it elevates the forming country to kingdom rank.
  

What do you think?

 

[Darkath]

As you've said, Yuan restoration was close but did't make it.

But as the yuan are represented as a vassal of oirat with the Borjigin leaders, to keep things simple they could simply have the name yuan instead of mongolia. There was nothing close to Mongolia existing at the time, while something called Yuan still kinda existed.

 

[Chief of Staff]

• Hansa: This one is probably a dream, but I'd like very much to see the somewhat frustrating trade league mechanics allow a successful trade league leader (more than 10 members, great trade revenues,etc...) to be able to integrate some or all of it's member states and form a more centralised country. This would likely requires events and/or difficult conditions to pull out, but a competent played would have a nice goal to reach as a merchant republic in northern Germany (the formation should be available to a merchant republic of Westphalian culture).

What do you think?

Forming Hansa might be hypothetically feasible, if all members can agree to form a federal state much like how Swiss cantons agreed to form a federal state, although this example was well beyond the EU4 timeframe in 1848, though not without a brief civil war preceding that.

But it would be actually interesting to see a federal merchant republic (as opposed to unitary merchant republic), of which forming the Hansa can represent. A federal merchant republic might present a different and interesting set of challenges compared to unitary merchant republics that Genoa and Venice represented.

For anyone who doesn't know what unitary is, it basically mean there are no semi-sovereign states within a nation that are protected from abolishment by the constitution like the U.S. states. United Kingdom is a good example of what a unitary state is, for while it devolved certain powers to Scotland and Wales, it is still technically a unitary state because these powers were granted and can be revoked by its Parliament (although in practice, revocation of these powers would be extremely unlikely with high political cost of doing so).

Honestly, I think we need to find ways to represent the federalism as distinct from unitary state in terms of power arrangement within the nations in EU4, but that is an entirely different issue that should be discussed in a separate thread.

 

[Grand Historian]

But as the yuan are represented as a vassal of oirat with the Borjigin leaders, to keep things simple they could simply have the name yuan instead of mongolia. There was nothing close to Mongolia existing at the time, while something called Yuan still kinda existed.

If only for consistency in the naming conventions - not to mention I feel that Mongolia would make more sense as being an empire-elevating CU rather than Yuan, and I imagine there could be an achievement regarding them - I'll go ahead and agree with Darkath that Mongolia should be Yuan at start with the possibility to (re)form into Mongolia.

Forming Hansa might be hypothetically feasible, if all members can agree to form a federal state much like how Swiss cantons agreed to form a federal state, although this example was well beyond the EU4 timeframe in 1848, though not without a brief civil war preceding that.

Though the US wasn't a merchant republic, I could see a federal Hansa bearing a strong resemblance to it structurally.

 

[VitMatejicek]

The Dukes of Burgundy tried elevating Burgundy into a separate Kingdom, yes, but it would have most likely just remained Burgundy had they been successful.

Read Simon Winder: Danubia. It is actually focused on the Habsburgs but there is a lot about last Dukes of Burgundy (since the Habsburgs inherited it). He is a quite well-known British historian and though it may not necessarily be true, it was indeed the dreamof the last Dukes to restore Lotharingia.

 

[VitMatejicek]

Rulers of Brabant also claimed the title of rulers of Lotharingia. Pretty much the whole Low Countries used to be called "Lower Lotharingia", so it would make sense for all the Flemish/Dutch/Walloon countries to be able to form either Lotharingia or Netherlands, with Lotharingia not having special government and needing more provinces to form, but it would grant empire status and permanent claims on Low Countries, Lorraine, Burgundy, Savoy, Provence and Northern Italy. Maybe add some neat national ideas to the mix to make it more rewarding.

It could go two ways - either have Yuan at the start and make Mongolia formable cultural union or keep Mongolia as Mongolia and make Yuan a formable nation. Either way, both these tags could be formable, or rather reformable(like Austria, France and Poland), with each forming decision giving different cultural union and set of permanent claims. Personally I have very little knowledge of Northeast Asian affairs, but I'd have Mongolia at the game's start. As you've said, Yuan restoration was close but did't make it.

Oh, and as we're talking about steppe nomads - Golden Horde could be reformable nation as well. The title of Khan of Golden Horde has been very prestigious for a few good centuries of EU's timeline, some horde that owned more important provinces of former GH(Crimea, Sarai, Nogai, Chimgi-Tura etc.) would surely take on this title.

Quite my point except for northern Italy which doesn't seem historical to me since Lotharingia consisted of Low Countries, Switzerland, Lorraine and north German borders (everything north of Lorraine and west of Bremen). Its borders are even included quite accurately in the Extended Timeline Mod.

 

[CelticWarrior95]

I would like to propose the ilkhanate as a formable nation, since yuan was proposed. could be formed by an altaic country (not timurids) that has conquered persia.

 

[Grand Historian]

Read Simon Winder: Danubia. It is actually focused on the Habsburgs but there is a lot about last Dukes of Burgundy (since the Habsburgs inherited it). He is a quite well-known British historian and though it may not necessarily be true, it was indeed the dreamof the last Dukes to restore Lotharingia.

I'm not denying that it was the dream of the Dukes to territorially restore Lotharingia, but their goal was to have Burgundy elevated into a Kingdom, in which it would have most likely just retained the name Burgundy. As it stands, the gov. rank system is capable of representing that perfectly, and I'm not keen on adding an additional tag that might be moot.

 

[JKiller96]

I would like to propose the ilkhanate as a formable nation, since yuan was proposed. could be formed by an altaic country (not timurids) that has conquered persia.

This is a possibility, especially for Qara Qoyunlu or Ak Qoyunlu. The Persians viewed these as outsiders really, forming an Ilkhanate government as a horde wouldn't be so far fetched.
As for the Mongolia thing, they should start as Khalkha and either form Yuan (expansion into China) or reform into Mongolia

 

[Warial]

This is a possibility, especially for Qara Qoyunlu or Ak Qoyunlu. The Persians viewed these as outsiders really, forming an Ilkhanate government as a horde wouldn't be so far fetched.
As for the Mongolia thing, they should start as Khalkha and either form Yuan (expansion into China) or reform into Mongolia

Non-Borjigins forming Ilkhanate? This is very far fetched.

 

[CelticWarrior95]

This is a possibility, especially for Qara Qoyunlu or Ak Qoyunlu. The Persians viewed these as outsiders really, forming an Ilkhanate government as a horde wouldn't be so far fetched.
As for the Mongolia thing, they should start as Khalkha and either form Yuan (expansion into China) or reform into Mongolia

no that would be too ahistorical, since AQ actually founded the persian empire. that's why I said altaic culture group (but maybe tartar would do too). ofc timmies should not be able to found the ilkhanate though, since, you know, they destroyed it.

as for the comment about the ruler non being a descendant of genghis khan, the following countries' ruling dynasty could claim to be rightful descendants of the great khan

kazan
golden horde
crimea
shaibanids (uzbeks)
astrakhan
qasim
chagatai
mongolia

I would argue that the tatars should not be able to reestablish the ilkhanate since the golden horde was a dinstinct successor state. so chagatai too. but the uzbek could do it, instead of fomring bukhara

 

[JKiller96]

no that would be too ahistorical, since AQ actually founded the persian empire. that's why I said altaic culture group (but maybe tartar would do too). ofc timmies should not be able to found the ilkhanate though, since, you know, they destroyed it.

as for the comment about the ruler non being a descendant of genghis khan, the following countries' ruling dynasty could claim to be rightful descendants of the great khan

kazan
golden horde
crimea
shaibanids (uzbeks)
astrakhan
qasim
chagatai
mongolia

I would argue that the tatars should not be able to reestablish the ilkhanate since the golden horde was a dinstinct successor state. so chagatai too. but the uzbek could do it, instead of fomring bukhara

Ak Koyunlu didn't found Persia, the revolting Safavids did.

 

[Grand Historian]

Ak Koyunlu didn't found Persia, the revolting Safavids did.

No, but they conquered very large swathes of it and paved the way for the Safavids to revolt. I mean, Burgundy gets the option to form the Netherlands despite the fact it never did and never wanted to historically, so I don't see why an exception couldn't be made for Ak Koyunlu.

 

[VitMatejicek]

I'm not denying that it was the dream of the Dukes to territorially restore Lotharingia, but their goal was to have Burgundy elevated into a Kingdom, in which it would have most likely just retained the name Burgundy. As it stands, the gov. rank system is capable of representing that perfectly, and I'm not keen on adding an additional tag that might be moot.

I just thought it would be quite cool to have Lotharingia formed for exampe as Lorraine, Provence or Cleves... Burgundy could already form lots of nations and their gameplay is quite OK. Just a thougth.

 

[JKiller96]

I dont see Ak Koyunlu or Kara Koyunlu forming Persia OR the Ilkhanate, but I can see in an alternate timeline if Babur went west instead of south, forming Moghul empire in Persia, which may or may not seem like a reincarnation of the Ilkhanate it is ALL speculation though.

 

[Grand Historian]

I dont see Ak Koyunlu or Kara Koyunlu forming Persia OR the Ilkhanate, but I can see in an alternate timeline if Babur went west instead of south, forming Moghul empire in Persia, which may or may not seem like a reincarnation of the Ilkhanate it is ALL speculation though.

Going west would have been unfeasible for Babur - going south was already a pretty big gamble as it was, but better than being crushed by his northern neighbors. And yes, from a historiographical perspective it makes no sense for the Koyunlus to form Persia, but the same can be said for Burgundy forming the Netherlands.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

Quite my point except for northern Italy which doesn't seem historical to me since Lotharingia consisted of Low Countries, Switzerland, Lorraine and north German borders (everything north of Lorraine and west of Bremen). Its borders are even included quite accurately in the Extended Timeline Mod.

They owned the territory up to central Italy after the treaty of Verdun though, so getting permanent claims there, as the empire would make sense to me.

 

[War_lord]

They owned the territory up to central Italy after the treaty of Verdun though, so getting permanent claims there, as the empire would make sense to me.

No one in 1500AD is going to take claims based on a 657 year old treaty seriously. And from a purely gameplay perspective, permanent claims shouldn't be handed out like free mints.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

No one in 1500AD is going to take claims based on a 657 year old treaty seriously. And from a purely gameplay perspective, permanent claims shouldn't be handed out like free mints.

I see your point, then again - Holy Roman Empire was pretty significant for a few years, even centuries, in game despite being obsolete. Additionally, Italy was one of the hottest places in regard of wars between major powers - France, Spain, Austria and so on. If Lotharingia was to be brought back to life, it would most likely try to get a chunk as well.

 

[War_lord]

I see your point, then again - Holy Roman Empire was pretty significant for a few years, even centuries, in game despite being obsolete. Additionally, Italy was one of the hottest places in regard of wars between major powers - France, Spain, Austria and so on. If Lotharingia was to be brought back to life, it would most likely try to get a chunk as well.

Burgundy already qualifies for the "Italian Ambition" mission thanks to being in the French culture group. Personally I still think that if the French and Austrian Monarchs were to allow Burgundy a crown, it would have been the pre-existing (on paper) Burgundian crown.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

Burgundy already qualifies for the "Italian Ambition" mission thanks to being in the French culture group. Personally I still think that if the French and Austrian Monarchs were to allow Burgundy a crown, it would have been the pre-existing (on paper) Burgundian crown.

There were plans for crowning duke of Burgundy a king, Holy Roman Emperor even approved it already iirc, but unfortunately, the duke got a halberd into the forehead.

I don't argue about Burgundy having to adopt the title of Lotharingia - I'm just saying it was still pretty eligible title at the time and countries aiming for an empire in that area should be able to form it.

If people think that Italian perma claims are too much then I wont push for it(as if I had any say in the matter), but I still think that territories from Friesland to Provence all make sense as Lotharingian de jure.