New Provinces for the Low Countries

[Metz]

Current:

Proposed:

This should make the Low Countries wealthier and represent the vast amounts of cities. Both the north and south have been improved in a balanced way. The Duchy of Brabant and the Duchy of Flanders have been boosted to represent their historical power. Friesland and Gelre were modified to be made more interesting. Zwolle was added as the province representing Overijssel which was owned by Utrecht until the 1500s. Finally, Holland was split to create the provinces of Den Haag to further make Holland stronger. Rotterdam is assumed to be merged with the Amsterdam province which in itself should represent "North Holland" thus rendering the Rhine estuary to be part of the Amsterdam province.

 

[zorkman]

In fairness it is quite difficult to click on these provinces as it is, & others in the HRE. Although what you say might be true, this might make it more difficult.

 

[Trin Tragula]

The low countries have the smallest non-island provinces in the game as it is. I sympathize with the idea of even more detail here but I would be lying if I said this is on the top of our agenda

 

[Calanon]

The low countries have the smallest non-island provinces in the game as it is. I sympathize with the idea of even more detail here but I would be lying if I said this is on the top of our agenda

Would it be possible for some of the province borders to be redrawn, at least? Or perhaps Oversticht as just one new province? The area could certainly look more attractive.

I'm going to attempt a minimalist redrawn Netherlands (and potentially England too) soon, adding as few provinces as possible.

 

[KD.]

Would it be possible for some of the province borders to be redrawn, at least? Or perhaps Oversticht as just one new province? The area could certainly look more attractive.

I'm going to attempt a minimalist redrawn Netherlands (and potentially England too) soon, adding as few provinces as possible.

I agree. Please see this thread I started only a few weeks ago (I know people don't like necromancy, but I'm not sure starting a new thread about the same topic every month is helpful either). Even just redrawing the borders would already help (to get rid of the truly awful shape of Gelre), plus the addition of one single province (Oversticht). I would personally always keep provinces as the basis and don't see any reason to reduce it to city level, as in the map above.

As for the argument that it already has the smallest provinces in the game: I think there are some smaller ones in the HRE. But more importantly, I don't think there's any need to add provinces that would actually be smaller than the current province of Utrecht. Oversticht would actually be bigger and Groningen could be similar in size.
Moreover, it was also a relatively densily populated area, so some small province like Oversticht here can actually be more relevant than a rather big one in the north of Scandinavia or Russia.

 

[Metz]

The low countries have the smallest non-island provinces in the game as it is. I sympathize with the idea of even more detail here but I would be lying if I said this is on the top of our agenda

All the ones that have been added are significantly bigger than Utrecht. In fact, Utrecht has been made bigger in the version I present. I think I even made it too large and could easily give some of it to Arnhem and Nijmegen. The provinces have been resized based on trimming unnecessary wide/tall borders on neighboring provinces.

I do think wariness of click ability is over exaggerated though, especially in a game where you can zoom in and have to pause to take strategic decisions. However, here I am positive that there will be no issue if lines were drawn carefully and spaces redistributed. We do also have the states screen which shows provinces as well which can be used as a fast way to click really however this won't be necessary. The map I made would make a great Low Countries region to play in. I would make a prototype but I don't know how to mod provinces.

Some of Cleves can be easily chipped away to make more space for Gelre and then Breda in turn could feed Gelre a bit and take some from Loon. Limburg can take some from Loon and Aachen as well. With proper rearrangement, these changes are very possible.

 

[gronak]

All the ones that have been added are significantly bigger than Utrecht. In fact, Utrecht has been made bigger in the version I present. I think I even made it too large and could easily give some of it to Arnhem and Nijmegen. The provinces have been resized based on trimming unnecessary wide/tall borders on neighboring provinces.

I do think wariness of click ability is over exaggerated though, especially in a game where you can zoom in and have to pause to take strategic decisions. However, here I am positive that there will be no issue if lines were drawn carefully and spaces redistributed. We do also have the states screen which shows provinces as well which can be used as a fast way to click really however this won't be necessary. The map I made would make a great Low Countries region to play in. I would make a prototype but I don't know how to mod provinces.

Some of Cleves can be easily chipped away to make more space for Gelre and then Breda in turn could feed Gelre a bit and take some from Loon. Limburg can take some from Loon and Aachen as well. With proper rearrangement, these changes are very possible.

I agree with this. Clicking on the provinces really is not hard to do. It is only hard when you are zoomed out far, but if you're playing in a dense area then it is common sense to zoom in so you have no problems.

I think the more provinces, the better. As long as they are justified of course. It allows for different shapes of borders between great powers, and allows for different areas to be major cities of the world.

 

[Metz]

I don't think the provinces are "small" here. All it needs is to rework and realign some areas.

 

[Calanon]

Not my redrawn, simplistic Netherlands but rather v1 of the Netherlands in my mod (which I am gonna be redrawing some of soon):

Westhoek and Rijsel are definitely kinda small, as are Limburg, Maastricht and Aachen now, but Ommelanden/Groningen, Drenthe & Overijssel are quite reasonably sized.

 

[Metz]

Can you try connecting Gelre to Holland and making Utrecht and exclave? Also splitting Amsterdam from Den Haag. The Brabant province in the east could eat some of the province of Loon to make it larger.

 

[Calanon]

Can you try connecting Gelre to Holland and making Utrecht and exclave? Also splitting Amsterdam from Den Haag. The Brabant province in the east could eat some of the province of Loon to make it larger.

Yeah I'm planning on doing those things, as well as making Hainaut larger and more accurately sized and possibly adding in Leuven and Breda. Possibly will split Gelre up too. Kind of want to add Land van Aalst to Flanders purely for nicer looking HRE borders, but that's probably OTT.

 

[TheDungen]

Current:

Proposed:

This should make the Low Countries wealthier and represent the vast amounts of cities. Both the north and south have been improved in a balanced way. The Duchy of Brabant and the Duchy of Flanders have been boosted to represent their historical power. Friesland and Gelre were modified to be made more interesting. Zwolle was added as the province representing Overijssel which was owned by Utrecht until the 1500s. Finally, Holland was split to create the provinces of Den Haag to further make Holland stronger. Rotterdam is assumed to be merged with the Amsterdam province which in itself should represent "North Holland" thus rendering the Rhine estuary to be part of the Amsterdam province.

I came here to tell you that the Netherlands don't need any more provinces but damn that looks good...

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

Unless there was a better approximation to the map - then it would be possible to create smaller provinces.

 

[Metz]

Look at my Italy one I did as well.

 

[AndrejK]

Antwerp, Haague and Maastricht a definate yes. The others I would not implement, as the area is too province-rich already

 

[PsysmicSound]

I'm not convinced about other additions, but I do like the idea of representing Oversticht and Drenthe, and splitting Friesland in two (which also means it won't likely be in a position to be made into a city-state if/when one of the starting ones is annexed or becomes a dictatorship). Redrawings of existing provinces are always nice too, but unless the changes affect adjacencies, I don't imagine that being much of a priority.

 

[PsysmicSound]

Also, not knowing much about the area and its history compared to others on this forum, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong here, but I do wonder if a strait between Zeeland and Vlaanderen would make sense. It certainly looks on the map like a place where a strait could be expected.

 

[Metz]

Also, not knowing much about the area and its history compared to others on this forum, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong here, but I do wonder if a strait between Zeeland and Vlaanderen would make sense. It certainly looks on the map like a place where a strait could be expected.

In the current game it would be strange. In my map they don't need a strait.

 

[VincentX]

The low countries have the smallest non-island provinces in the game as it is. I sympathize with the idea of even more detail here but I would be lying if I said this is on the top of our agenda

@Trin Tragula

The Low Countries as an area is pretty fine as it is anyway. Sure, it can use some minor tweaks (though none of them game-changing), in this order of importance:

1. Adding the province of Oversticht, cut from the Gelre and Friesland provinces, and owned by Utrecht (actually a longtime desire expressed by a lot of Dutch players). This is the absolute #1 glaring oversight that we notice, while everything else is a minor issue. Source
2. The province of Zeeland as a collection of island connected to Breda as a strait (but not to Holland nor Flanders) but otherwise not connected to land, similar to Venice.
3. Adding a Zuiderzee sea province. Source
4. Renaming "Flanders" province into "Bruges (English) / Brugge (Dutch)", as the historical county of Flanders covered not just the current province but also Ghent and Artois and is an actual country in EU4.

Really, though, only #1 really matters. And #4 takes but ten minutes to fix in the relevant localization and name files. (I'll provide you with corrected code for all relevant lines, if you like.)

@Metz

You've completely misplaced Mechelen, Antwerp, Brugge (Bruges) and Ghent on your map. Mechelen should be Antwerp; Antwerp should be Ghent, Ghent should be Aalst (not currently in the game); Bruges should be Veurne or Dunkirk (or better yet: just part of Ypres); Mechelen is a city between Antwerp and Brussels on a north-south axis; Rotterdam is actually south of The Hague and considered the farthest south point of Holland, so discribing it as part of North-Holland is a rather strange thing to do; and the landlocked Middelburg province is completely absurd as Zeeland was literally just a bunch of island until relatively recently.

 

[VincentX]

Also, not knowing much about the area and its history compared to others on this forum, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong here, but I do wonder if a strait between Zeeland and Vlaanderen would make sense. It certainly looks on the map like a place where a strait could be expected.

Technically, Zeeland would need strait connections with Holland, Breda and Flanders, which is a bit silly. Having a land-based connections to Breda only (and no other province) is a functional enough compromise.