No Point to Granting Holy Orders Baronies

[iron0037]

Problem
This report comes out of a conversation in the main forum. So far as players can tell, there is no incentive to giving a Holy Order a castle (or other title) within your realm. The behavior of the Holy Order appears no different than if you were to cede a barony to a random foreigner.

Suggested Fix
Holy Orders that are granted a title within your realm should behave as a special kind of vassal. It should garner you a monthly piety bonus instead of a prestige bonus. The troops should be more powerful (higher morale and/or levy size) than a normal baron yet only able to be raised during a war with non-Christians. The opinion of the Holy Order leader should still impact levy size, they should be able to revolt if they're angry enough, etc. They should behave like regular barons in every other way.

Why is this important?
As it stands, it's impossible to create a situation that mimics the historical Crusader States. The King of Jerusalem granted the Holy Orders territory within his realm to bulwark his position. Holy Order forces were regularly called upon (and were a major component of) the kingdom's army during times of crisis.

 

[VI Imre]

Though it's not really bug I've encountered the very same thing. The orders in my Levant have 6 barony-tier castles. I belive it is some sort of a half-implemented thing.

 

[iron0037]

"Concerns of a historical nature" are fair game for bug reporting according to the guidelines. I would be happy to provide further documentation of Holy Order components in Crusader State armies if it's necessary.

 

[Darrigan]

Maybe instead of making them some kind of semi-vassals, why not automatically "ally" them to the person that granted them land?
This alliance would be different, because you should only be able to call them to war against non-christians (Which would make it useful to grant them lands bordering the heathens. That way they would be some kind of buffer zone.). I'm no history expert, but I thought that's basically the point of the Teutonic Order in the Baltic, besides whacking some Lithuanian pagans. (Don't start flaming me if I'm wrong!)

Maybe this alliance should not be character-bound, but realm-bound. So the order will always stay 'loyal' to the king of England for example, even if some Czech family inherits the throne.
An alliance-ish system would also allow the Order to be loyal to more than one realm. If they were some kind of (semi-)vassals, they would only be able to have one liege. The alliance-ish system would allow them to be loyal to more than one king. The idea that they could only be called to war against heathens, circumvents the problem of having to choose sides if two 'allied' kings declare war on each other.

 

[unmerged(199940)]

I gave the Templars and Hospitallers a castle each, and they reward me by forging claims on my land (which they can't press).

 

[ForzaA]

The King of Jerusalem granted the Holy Orders territory within his realm to bulwark his position. Holy Order forces were regularly called upon (and were a major component of) the kingdom's army during times of crisis.

And herein lies the bonus - it is significantly cheaper to hire&maintain the Holy Order "mercenaries" if they're granted territory in your realm.

At least, that's how it's supposed to work (and a quick check with the 3rd crusade bookmark suggests it works in that case) - if you have any savegames that show contrary behaviour they'd be greatly appreciated.

 

[Isaios]

And herein lies the bonus - it is significantly cheaper to hire&maintain the Holy Order "mercenaries" if they're granted territory in your realm.

At least, that's how it's supposed to work (and a quick check with the 3rd crusade bookmark suggests it works in that case) - if you have any savegames that show contrary behaviour they'd be greatly appreciated.

If that's the intention, then it's not currently WaD.

In the save I'm upping the Templars have just entered stage left, and they cost 157 piety to hire. This is while holding four baronies in total, all in the Kingdom of Jerusalem. At the same time, the Hospitallers cost 39 piety to hire, and they hold no land anywhere. The difference is that the Hospitallers are vassals of the kingdom, while the Templars are not.

Giving them land doesn't (and probably shouldn't) give immediate vassalisation status, but on the other hand, I doesn't seem possible to do it through diplomacy either (check the save).

As a small modding PS, where is that hire cost reduction in the files? Haven't been able to find it as of yet.

Jerusalem, in the year of our Lord, 1119.

 

[Myrten]

You can vassalize them, what's more you can become grandmaster yourself and have them completely for free

 

[Isaios]

So that works then, excellent! (Just need more power)

After becoming grand master, can you select the heir? Because that'd be ever so sweet And also, how'd you get to be the bossman?

 

[Myrten]

So that works then, excellent! (Just need more power)

After becoming grand master, can you select the heir? Because that'd be ever so sweet And also, how'd you get to be the bossman?

It merges with your primary title just like other duchies. So I'm primogeniturial grand master

If grand master is of your culture you can give him land so you would be his de jure liege. He should accept vassalization at +100 relations. You can also use claimant and press claim on Knights.

In my game one grandmaster switchted succession to gavelkind and he was childless so when he died I as his liege inherited all.

 

[Isaios]

Ok, managed to do it. It's pretty sweet, but is too exploit-y for my tastes unfortunately. Had it just given free hire cost I'd have been all over it like a ... thing that is all over something else.

 

[Myrten]

Well it's up to you how do you use it, for me crusaders cost are small enough to be irrelevant.

 

[iron0037]

And herein lies the bonus - it is significantly cheaper to hire&maintain the Holy Order "mercenaries" if they're granted territory in your realm.

At least, that's how it's supposed to work (and a quick check with the 3rd crusade bookmark suggests it works in that case) - if you have any savegames that show contrary behaviour they'd be greatly appreciated.

I agree with Isaios, this is not working if that's the intention. I granted a castle to the Templars in my county of Alexandria. Let me elaborate so it's clear. A castle was in my demesne. I went to the grandmaster's diplomacy screen and granted him a title, Baron of such-and-such. I received a small amount of piety during the transaction.

Flash forward many decades. The cost of hiring a Holy Order is 157.5 piety. I loaded the same file but played as Hungary. Their cost to hire a Holy Order is also 157.5, despite not having granted any land. You can have my save game file at this location.

Even if this worked correctly, it's a pretty bad solution in my mind. Why would I want to grant Holy Orders land on my frontiers as opposed to tucking them away in some inconsequential corner of my realm? When I hire a Holy Order, they arrive at my capital; they don't pop out of the castle I granted them.