Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Oh the horror! What if the Mongols....

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Endre Fodstad

Endre Fodstad

Colonel
23 Badges
Feb 6, 2000
1.142
3
Visit site
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
What if the Mongols all became Christian? What if the Mongols took Paris? What if the Mongols painted themselves yellow and took up Morris Dancing?

All legitimate questions worthy of debate. However, there's one _very_ interesting "what if" question regarding the mongols in CK: What if they never defeat and vassalize the russian principalities(Or never invade)?

The first mongol incursion should occur, if CK plans on assuming that extraoccidental activites pass pretty much as they did historically, in the early 1200s. They'll naturally lead to a lot of fun or a quick end of the game for a player playing eastern kingdoms or principalities. But players being players and CK being a game, it's likely that the mongol hordes will get creamed by pretty much every human player(who in all likelyhood has conquered half the map by the 1200s!)

This would _really_ have a radical impact on the future of russia. Will this be modeled in the game? Would it mean greater russian contact with latin europe(friendly or hostile)? Without "The Tatar Yoke", the russian states from 1250 to 1453 would take a _radically_ different path from history. Snowball being russians and all, have they considered this in their development?

EF
 
Hehe, it can just as well happen, like the powered-up-Sweden-syndrome from EU :p

On your comment about conquering half of the map, I think it won't be possible in the game though, at least from what we are being told. Unlike EU, CK will not be a game of world domination and it would not be possible to attack just anyone :)
 
Originally posted by Endre Fodstad
Since "being good at a game" equals "being good at exploiting the many and inherent flaws in any computer game" I believe most players out there will find a way.

EF
Click to expand...

Lets hope not. Really bugs me that people have to play the game in a manner which was not intended.:confused: :(
 
Oh, come on - Peter Ebbesen is universially lauded in these forums as Professor of World Conquest by conquering the world in EU2 by audicious use of the cavalry exploit and otherwise abusing the rules to their greatest extent, not to mention the teleporting world-conquering Nationalist Chinese from his HoI AAR list. Strategic redeployment from Beijjing to Paris in a week! Wow!

Of course he is well aware of this, jokes about it, and writes entertaining AARs besides. But the real "masters" of _any_ computer game is the ones that find the most efficient exploits and use them for all they're worth. That's just the way things are when you deal with a dumb machine: in a boardgame the other human players tend to frown on rule exploiting.

EF
 
Originally posted by Martinus
On your comment about conquering half of the map, I think it won't be possible in the game though, at least from what we are being told. Unlike EU, CK will not be a game of world domination and it would not be possible to attack just anyone :)
Click to expand...
Well, Mongols aren't playable for one and second, they were after world domination of a kind.
 
I surely hope Mongols are not pathetic weaklings there are in Medieval:Total war. They should be nearly impossible to defeat even for a unified Russia.
 
Yeah, what they said. :D

It should be possible, as an eastern dynasty, to repel the Mongols, but I imagine it'd be difficult. In theory, you'd be dealing with an enemy that doesn't operate from a stationary base, such as a castle, and who doesn't conscript from a manpower pool that's close to the fighting. Therefore, you'd be stuck in a defensive war against fast, light cavalry whose forage stocks couldn't be destroyed. I can only see two ways to combat this; either develop your own nomadic light cavalry to seek and destroy Mongol forces (which may be impossible if you're relying on a static feudal levy) or spend billions of whatever-your-currency-is on gigantic walls and fortresses to keep them away from your farmland.

What I'm actually more interested in is how the Mongol infrastructure will be modeled. How will Mongol states form? How will the essentially stateless Mongols of the thirteenth century raise troops? If they don't necessarily have to stop rampaging across Europe when their leader back east dies, what determines their level of activity? In theory, even if WE can't play the Mongols, the computer still has to... so is the computer bound by the same laws as the player or not, or is it all handled by random events?
 
I think the Russians could have defeated the Mongols in their element, the northern forest belt. A stronger Russian alliance could have defied the Khan with some hope of success. On the steppes they're buggered, of course.
 
Originally posted by snuggs
I think the Russians could have defeated the Mongols in their element, the northern forest belt. A stronger Russian alliance could have defied the Khan with some hope of success. On the steppes they're buggered, of course.
Click to expand...
Problem is, most important Rus cities like Kiev were located in Ukraine and/or Central European Russia AFAIK, so you would have to abandon your major cities and let them be burned to the ground by the horde.
 
If the principalities had actually managed to properly cooperate with the various steppe peoples in opposition to the invasion, notably the Polovtsians/Cumans, they could probably have faced just about any mongol army on equal terms. The polovtians' were light and medium shock cavalry entirely on the level of the mongols.

All this is secondary to this discussion and the game. The Mongols in TW are pretty darn strong, as anyone who plays a hands-off game can see - they bugger the computer players without the benefit of butter. The problem is the human players, who will in all likelyhood be more than equipped to give the slanty-eyed gits some serious trouble. And go on to conquer the entire map...

Of course, if the mongols are beefed up to deal with the human players, there's not going to be a computer controlled kingdom left east of the Loire if the human plays, say, France...

In response to my original question, does anyone know if Paradox intends to model a potential unsubjugated russia?

EF

EF
 
Originally posted by snuggs
I think the Russians could have defeated the Mongols in their element, the northern forest belt. A stronger Russian alliance could have defied the Khan with some hope of success. On the steppes they're buggered, of course.
Click to expand...

I agree with another post on this board about cooperating with the Steppe people. But I would like to add: If Kiev hadn't destroyed Kazaria, thus removing a peaceful empire for a group of dangerous steppe people...
 
Originally posted by historycaesar
I agree with another post on this board about cooperating with the Steppe people. But I would like to add: If Kiev hadn't destroyed Kazaria, thus removing a peaceful empire for a group of dangerous steppe people...
Click to expand...

Khazars peaceful???:)
 
I don't see why they wouldn't model an unsubjugated russia. I mean, if a human is playing a dynasty in that area, it'd be pretty depressing to have every game end halfway through 'cuz of the Mongols.
 
Originally posted by Xoxxon
I don't see why they wouldn't model an unsubjugated russia. I mean, if a human is playing a dynasty in that area, it'd be pretty depressing to have every game end halfway through 'cuz of the Mongols.
Click to expand...

Yeah and if this is the case I hope you can live on as a subjugated russian dynasty.
 
Originally posted by Xoxxon
I don't see why they wouldn't model an unsubjugated russia. I mean, if a human is playing a dynasty in that area, it'd be pretty depressing to have every game end halfway through 'cuz of the Mongols.
Click to expand...

More incentive to marry into a western European dynasty to keep the line alive so it can return and kick the Mongols out.:)
 
Originally posted by Sonny
More incentive to marry into a western European dynasty to keep the line alive so it can return and kick the Mongols out.:)
Click to expand...
No, after all this is suppose to reflect a possible historical outcome to some extent or another. So marrying is an option, but not the most likely one as the Russians didn't have foresight to see they wouldn't be able to stop the mongols or they made deals with them to allow them to rule as vassals or whatnot in exchange for giving there aligence to Mongolia.

So no, it shouldn't be nessary to marry Western Europeans.

Besides, what if the mongols counquer all of Europe?
 
Originally posted by Jinnai
Besides, what if the mongols counquer all of Europe?
Click to expand...

Then they'll be free to paint themselves yellow and take up Morris Dancing.

Read this article, posted a million times by yours truly earlier, to see a serious historian comment on the viability of any desire or ability on the part of the mongols to conquer europe(slightly more though trough than that hack Hildiger):

http://www.deremilitari.org/sinor1.htm

EF
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back