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unmerged(32135)

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Jul 19, 2004
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I think there's too much oil in the game. It's hardly ever a determining factor of battles or strategy in my games. I believe oil demand could be increased by having economies more dependent upon it. For instance -- consumers use oil! Have a 'peace time' and 'war footing' setting, but the more MP, IC, or Infrastructure (whatever) a country has, the more oil it uses. Also, convoys should use oil. Maybe even strategically redeploying troops should use oil.

-- Beppo
 
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Have you ever played the Gotterdämmerung scenario? It's not that oil isn't critical in the game, it's the way stockpiles can build up in the pre-war years. As of now, everything that's produced is simply put directly in stockpiles for later use. If this were changed, and supply depots and transports could be attacked, all resources would be much more crucial.
 
Haven't played Gotter... I really enjoy the early war years the most. I do think 'capitol stockpiles' are nuts. If Hitler could have gotten all the oil he ever wanted by taking Moscow, he would not have ordered the panzers to swing south.....

-- Beppo
 
I agree. And I'm quite sure that by the beginning of the outbreak of the war the lack of oil supplies for Germans was still a headache.

And on those days the largest oil exporting country, Persia as instance was so under influence of British overlords that it was impossible for a rival such as Germany to obtain this resource from this open market as shown in the Game.

And anyway where can a nation store this tremendous amount of oil. :)
 
One suggestion that has been mooted several times is that countries should only have a minimal "inherent" resource stockpiling ability, which can be increased in steps by building on-map stockpile facilities. These facilities would be located in specific provinces (just like Nuclear Reactors and Rocket Test Sites are), and could be STRAT-bombed... thus destroying part of the stockpiled resources by reducing the stockpiling cap.
 
Well assuming that there is no supply depot raiding in the
Game. or what I haven't noticed this could make the game far more realistic.
Ah and one more thing. Trust the words of an Electrical Engineer ( I am) The energy shown as a separate stockable item is just meaningless. Unless one thinks that the energy is stored as Battery pills, The Energy ( Electrical I assume) is just unstorable.
A more realistic approch is the online energy sources ( Hydroelectric, thermal,...) and a energy network the same as the infrastructure level. :D
 
pioneer_colonel said:
... The Energy ( Electrical I assume) is just unstorable...
Click to expand...
Coal.
 
pioneer_colonel said:
Coal is an item similar to oil. Energy produced by industry is not mineral energy :)
Click to expand...
In-game, Energy is not produced by Industry... exactly the opposite, in fact... it is CONSUMED by Industry, after being produced in the provinces. Just as Coal is. Try comparing the HOI-2 map distributions of Energy to the real-life map distributions of Coal... then get back to me on the topic.
 
mod 34 offers a nice way to solve the stockpile-problem. once you conquer a sector, you get ressources while the enemy loses them. if you would abandon capital-stockpile capture and only use the sector model you would actually be forced to move towards the caucasus for oil and not towards moscow.

the other problem with infinite stockpiles could be solved by a limit for stockpiles depending on your IC. this would also make the battle of the atlantic something better than a battle of attrition as you could starve britain
 
Id linke to add that the US has to much oil in the game. It was one of the biggest (I believe even the biggest) oil producers in those years, but also the first country that had so much cars using it. So their tanks in europe where supplied from Venezuela, the domestic production wasn't enough.

So for the US, oil wasn't a critical factor like it was for germany, but it still was an issue. I it wasn't, they wouldn't have made posters like this one these days:

http://www.ddaymuseum.org/images/christmas/ride_with_hitler.jpg
 
Good link. I think most countries have too much oil in the game. Domestic and industrial use isn't a factor in the game as it was historically.

I quote from the History of United States Naval Operation in World War II, Vol. III, p. 63: "The oil embargo and the assets-freezing order of 26 July 1941 [the Japanese could get Dutch oil for cash, but most of their cash was in the U.S.- me]....made war with Japan inevitable...."

You could make a great case for how the need for oil drove the course of the war. The Germans swerved south from Moscow to protect the Rumanian oil fields.... the oil embargo pushed Japan into a war with the U.S. .... lack of fuel oill was one reason why the Italian navy didn't venture much from their bases .... Rommel running out of gas in N. Africa ....

-- Beppo
 
himbim said:
Id linke to add that the US has to much oil in the game. It was one of the biggest (I believe even the biggest) oil producers in those years, but also the first country that had so much cars using it. So their tanks in europe where supplied from Venezuela, the domestic production wasn't enough.
Click to expand...
Not true, AFAIK the USA exported oil untill the end of WWII, it wasn't untill after WWII that the USA became a net importer instead of exporter of oil.

It may be so that the USA bought crude oil (or refined) from Venezuela, but they also exported a lot; almost the entire Allied warmachine ran on American oil. The UK for example depended on American oil, definitely the high octan aviation fuels, on which the USA had a monopoly.


himbim said:
So for the US, oil wasn't a critical factor like it was for germany, but it still was an issue. I it wasn't, they wouldn't have made posters like this one these days:

http://www.ddaymuseum.org/images/christmas/ride_with_hitler.jpg
Click to expand...

Nearly all Western governments advocate carpooling. Does that mean there isn't enough oil available? Sure prises rise, but AFAIK you can still get it everywhere.

You are aware that in those days probably only in the USA there were considerable numbers of people with a car for private use (only). I'm generalizing, but over the rest of the world there wasn't any fuel available for private use at all.
 
also one of the mods (TRP?) uses the resources in a special way. big cities like London are producing negative number of energy and oil to simulate the public usage of those resources. i don't remember if this numbers decrease in war to stimulate the increased prices and the rationing system, but it should. this will also make those resources more scarce. my idea is that the oil production is also determined by laws of supply and demand and the worldwide production of oil roughly equals the demand. so making huge stockiple without artificialy decreasing public usage is very very costly
 
Actual supplies of resources from territories allows the simulated strategic resources problems you guys seek. I would have to agree that the pre-war stockpiling of resources like oil allow you almost completely ignore real-world resource concerns. I seem to recall one of earlier HOI had a resource stockpile cap. Thats one easy fix. I guess it could have to take into account countries ability (TECH maybe) to stockpile based on nation size, technology, and historical factors.
Interesting thread though.
 
blue emu said:
In-game, Energy is not produced by Industry... exactly the opposite, in fact... it is CONSUMED by Industry, after being produced in the provinces. Just as Coal is. Try comparing the HOI-2 map distributions of Energy to the real-life map distributions of Coal... then get back to me on the topic.
Click to expand...

The HoI-2 map distribution of energy resources is definitely NOT coincident with coal deposits. Several major cities with no coal mines around them have hefty energy values and areas with hydroelectric plants and no coal (I'm thinking particularly in the Soviet Union) get energy resources in the game. Energy is understood by most gamers to be more than coal in HoI-2 and it is also described as such in the HoI manual (Doomsday version p. 45).
 
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pioneer_colonel said:
Well assuming that there is no supply depot raiding in the
Game. or what I haven't noticed this could make the game far more realistic.
Ah and one more thing. Trust the words of an Electrical Engineer ( I am) The energy shown as a separate stockable item is just meaningless. Unless one thinks that the energy is stored as Battery pills, The Energy ( Electrical I assume) is just unstorable.
A more realistic approch is the online energy sources ( Hydroelectric, thermal,...) and a energy network the same as the infrastructure level. :D
Click to expand...

I think what you're saying could be reprsented by power plants being a provincial asset and possible to strategically bomb. That would decouple coal deposits from power generation, but would require a new "energy" variable in the game (more like TC rather than infrastructure). IC should then use up energy instead of coal, while nuclear reactors could eat up or later contribute to energy (the Manhattan project required huge amounts of electricity).
 
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