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On the province's of the lowlands...

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TheFlemishDuck

TheFlemishDuck

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In EuII ,the lowlands were dubiously made ,especially in respect to their rivers.Now ,recently i saw this screenshot:

ScreenShot3.jpg


Now i'm still not to overly content with this setup ,granted it's beter than EUII 2 ,however:

The situation of the Either Maas or Shelde river is false. (or correct)
The Rijn river is situated about correctly this time ,so kudos to that.But the river below it wich run's Under Zeeland but carries on to Luik is however is not in existance in real life.In real life there are 2 rivers there ,The Shelde and the Maas. The Maas Run's From Northern France ,trough Luik ,then along the east border of a province called limburg in real life wich looks to be situated in Luik on the game map.Then the Maas goes trough south ducth Limbur and from there makes a turn to the North sea ending somewhere in the North of Zeeland.
The Shelde starts in Northern France ,would run on the game map alonng the west border of Hainault ,then on the bored of Brabant/Gent and from there on after have gone trough antwerp would make a turn to the North sea ending in the South of Zeeland.

That makes me having a problem with the province's of luik ,Luxemburg and Zeeland in first ,that's as i'm Flemmish. And i'm sure that when Dutch people will look at this map they will find some inconsistencies to.
 
I don't get posts like this.
<Rant>
I'm mean do I demand that Assiniboia or the mighty Wood River be included on every map of Saskatchewan. Gosh, sometimes Saskatchewan isn't even included in maps of Canada!!! :) Oops the the Wood River isn't on the map, the people of Canada are going to pitch a fit. It's a GAME! There needs to be some abstraction! That is unless you have a system with infinite memory and resolution to resolve every hamlet and muddy creek. Do rivers even mean anything in the game?!?! I personally hope that the friggen' course of rivers is at the bottom on Johan's "List of Things to Worry About".
</Rant>
 
The reason for the rivers are that they are based on the EU2 map. Compare that screenie to the EU2 map... River "errors" in EU2 are still there in CK, although it's possible to assign other (better?) names.
 
I don't get posts like this. <Rant> I'm mean do I demand that Assiniboia or the mighty Wood River be included on every map of Saskatchewan. Gosh, sometimes Saskatchewan isn't even included in maps of Canada!!! Oops the the Wood River isn't on the map, the people of Canada are going to pitch a fit. It's a GAME! There needs to be some abstraction! That is unless you have a system with infinite memory and resolution to resolve every hamlet and muddy creek. Do rivers even mean anything in the game?!?! I personally hope that the friggen' course of rivers is at the bottom on Johan's "List of Things to Worry About". </Rant>
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Well ,from a modmaking perspective it's better to have clear province placement.I'm not ranting on minor details i think if a province is 150 kilometers out of place ,or maybe otherwise said it's name.See if Zeeland could be renamed to a more apropiate name for it's location (ask a dutchman for an apropiate name) so that it doesn't conflict with the maas river ,and rename Luik and Luxemburg ,then that might resolve a lot.Renaming wouldn't be that much work then actually like Harvard suggested.Definatly Zeeland should be renamed for geographical consistency.

The problem i think is that at game start Zeeland will be an independant dutch vasal either to Germany or Flanders ,therefore they have their own province.
 
The rivers in the Low Lands have moved around since some centuries. I have got some maps. As a Flemish, You certainly know that normal ships did come to Brugge once upon a time? And that was from north-east. So, I think we could accept a little freedom in a not-changing map.

It is worse if Beograd is still not upon the Donau...
 
Well the case of Brugge is a bit rare actually.Brugge was at one point in history positioned right at the sea ,but because of siltening of the coast Brugge became inland later ,wich was bad for such an impotant trade hub so an canal was made trough damme to connect Brugge with the sea again.

Anyway ,at most i'm only asking the renaming of some province's ,most perticulary Zeeland ,however that may create a problem as Zeeland was a dutchy at that time.

What i don't get is people criticizing me because i make these point's.If province's are placed somewhat wrong ,isn't it constructive criticism to point that out ,and if changed wouldn't that not improve the game that is of historical nature anyway?
I can understand if it won't be changed ,but i do think i'm correct in forum ettiquette to point it out.
 
TheFlemishDuck said:
I can understand if it won't be changed ,but i do think i'm correct in forum ettiquette to point it out.
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Yes, certainly You are correct. As far as I can see the fault is that there was much more water irl than there is in the map. Both between provinces and within them. Most of the water moved to the sea, but also from the sea because of the tide. So it was not real rivers, and the provinces were more like islands, or groups of islands. You probably know better than I do, if there were any bridges - in my maps the waters mostly seem to be too wide for that.
 
I think Zeeland is excellent located in between rivers, difficult to acces for armies (only from the east you don't cross a river), strategically located between Holland and Flanders. I agree that LIege should be renamed Limburg and luxemburg split into liege and luxemburg, it seems more geographically correct.

BTW what's that province called between Breda and Julich? L__N? Loon?
 
You have to understand, guys, that Paradox games are really unprecedented in their geographical and historical detail (compare with Civilization, MTW or Genghis Khan for example ;)), and while every effort is made by the designers and betas to make it as accurate as possible (notice the coats of arms that appear on screenshots for example - as Johan said, there is about 1000 "nations" playable in each scenario), it is impossible to avoid making mistakes. :)
 
You have to understand, guys, that Paradox games are really unprecedented in their geographical and historical detail (compare with Civilization, MTW or Genghis Khan for example ), and while every effort is made by the designers and betas to make it as accurate as possible (notice the coats of arms that appear on screenshots for example - as Johan said, there is about 1000 "nations" playable in each scenario), it is impossible to avoid making mistakes.
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I agree.Hence we have a discussion board where people can post their observation's of the game and adress fault's so that maybe the Dev's can iron them out before the game release ,nothing wrong with that ,it's called constructive criticism.It's not like i'm pointing a gun to the head of the Dev team to change it ,i just post my observation's and if they can find time to rework it a bit then that can only aid the correctness of the game.Afterall a certain historical correctness is expected from Paradox games ,sure the borders don't have to be correct on the pixel however anybody would point it out to should Rome be positioned in the Middle east by Mistake.

If i may point out something else.There's a discussion thread on the province's of the lowlands in EUII ,wich were not very well simulated neither.Back then it presented a problem for people making mod's on the lowlands.I'm not sure if i could find the thread back ,but like Harvard mentioned he province's of CK are basicly province's of EUII splitted in 2 ,so the map inherinted small inconsistencies the EUII map had.
May i point out to in that respect that Victoria has a way better simulated lowlands than any Paradox games as it's basicly the national province's of the Lowland country's

I would be happy if i would get a number of posters here originating from the lowlands wich could give their oppinion how the Dev team can change the map easily at this point into development to make the Lowalnds geographicly better ,taking into account the changes that the Dev team uberhaupt still can make.
 
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Jos Theelen said:
There was some duke in the 13th century, Lodewijk van Loon.
That province Loon is what is now called Limburg in Belgium.
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AFAIK Loon was a county, and a separate entity from the Duchy of Limburg. Quite funny this really, as the Belgians call the land held by the counts of Loon Limburg, and the land held by the Dukes of Limburg is something else (Liege/Luik) :D (map)

The counts of Loon are known from the late 10th century until the 14th
 
And on the CK map ,Loon lies above the Maas (Meuse?) river ,while on Harvards map the Maas clearly the Maas goes first along the east of Loon and then along the North of it.Hasselt seems to be right in the center of loon and that is the current provincial center of limburg.
 
I mean that Loon was located where nowadays the province Belgium Limbourg is located.

TheFlemishDuck is right, when he complaines about the river Maas. The map of Victoria is much better. But that map has no rivers in them, so that made it easier :) It would be difficult to situate the Maas correct, because it flows for a big part almost the same place as the Rhine in the Netherlands.
 
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