Open beta for 1.04 - RC3 - CLOSED

[unmerged(48686)]

Removed see open beta II.

Is open beta II released? I can't find it.
I just bought the game and have only been able to get my hands on patch 1.03 from gamersgate.

 

[Syntalynder]

Japan conquers China too fast. Way too fast. It should be a stalemate/struggle.

It seems the problems that Japan faced about fighting in China in real life are not being simulated in the game somehow. I don't have the answer either.

Apart from this one issue, the game is joy to play but this issue spoils it when playing the 1936/39/41 scenarios.

BTW -are the combat modifiers for terrain hard-coded? I think the penalties for mountain combat, movement and supply may be far too easy for mountains: observing the combats in China, Japanese forces seems to steamroller through a few times.

 

[Grimlin]

Japan conquers China too fast. Way too fast. It should be a stalemate/struggle.

It seems the problems that Japan faced about fighting in China in real life are not being simulated in the game somehow. I don't have the answer either.

As discussed in other threads this is mostly an AI issue... the Japan AI commits to much troops / resources in the China theater and therefore is a pushover for the US later in the war. Afaik every determined japanese Operation against the Chinese was carried out very fast and also successfull, rest of the time they wanted a stalemate.

Instead of making the Chinese better than they were fix the JAP AI

 

[Aidan]

The problem with Nat China is they produce a ton of militia. The militia get brushed aside and game over. The Chinese hold out a lot longer when they build normal infantry.

 

[Porkman]

Japan conquers China too fast. Way too fast. It should be a stalemate/struggle.

It seems the problems that Japan faced about fighting in China in real life are not being simulated in the game somehow. I don't have the answer either.

Apart from this one issue, the game is joy to play but this issue spoils it when playing the 1936/39/41 scenarios.

BTW -are the combat modifiers for terrain hard-coded? I think the penalties for mountain combat, movement and supply may be far too easy for mountains: observing the combats in China, Japanese forces seems to steamroller through a few times.

The way terrain works in AOD is that no one ever gets a bonus. Attackers just get much bigger penalties. The way stacking works in this game also means that quality matters much more. 3 1936 divisions with artillery have a BWA of 3637. It takes 6 1918 Chinese infantry to beat that. This is is assuming that all things are equal between the two sides.

In August of 1937, Nat China will have an org of 47 for all their divisions (though lower for warlord ones) because they will still be in the middle of researching Human Wave while the Japanese will have a org of 51 because they have Trench Warfare and Mass Assault already done. They also have 70 Morale while the Nationalists only have 30.

The leadership on the Japanese side is also much better. The average Chinese general is untraited with a skill of one or zero and the absolute best is a skill 3 general with two traits. In contrast, the Japanese have 4 Field Marshals with skill of 2 or 4 all with traits. The Japanese also have 10 leaders with multiple good traits (the Chinese only have 3.) The skill disparity makes the Japanese about 10% more effective.

Further tilting the field to the Japanese is the over command limit. Japan has HQ's while China does not. This means that the Japanese AI can (and will) attack with 24 divisions at a time. They have a BWA of 83948. It takes 51 Chinese (BWA 85590) divisions to stop that. In a hill province, the attacker will have -40 penalty while the defender has a -5. This puts the amount of divisions needed to stop that at 37.

What happens if those 24 Japanese divisions are attacked? China still needs 51 divisions to win, but it can only attack with 12 divisions from each province, because of the over the command limit and having no HQ's. That requires that the Chinese have 12 stacks in 5 bordering provinces attacking simultaneously.

Surely, multiple fronts will help, won't they? Not as much as you'd think. 36 1918 divisions attacking from 3 provinces have a +10% bonus from the multiple fronts. So they have a BWA of 55000. Not enough. With 4 provinces, the bonus goes up to 30%. To beat the Japanese 24 stack, you need 42 divisions attacking simultaneously from 4 different directions (BWA 83000). This is something that is far beyond the abilities of the AI.

What if the Japanese are on a hill? (BWA = 83948 x .95 = 79750). The Chinese are going to be at -40%. Those same 42 divisions just rose to 60 divisions to beat the Japanese. (BWA = 80996)

Beyond a certain point, the Japanese become essentially invincible because the stacking mechanics make it literally impossible to fit enough Chinese divisions around them to attack successfully. Even if they do, the support defense mission means that enough reinforcements will arrive to stop the attack. There are ways that a human can overcome this (staggered attacks, letting the Japanese really stretch out etc.), but the AI cannot win in blob on blob combat against Japan. The Japanese will either move forward or be stopped. They will never be pushed back. This is what kills China, the line just creeps across until Japan has pushed all the way to the end.

The only way to fix it is to change the map.

In game China, (warlords included) has 114 provinces. This is a lot, but it’s far less than Western Russia (Barbarossa scenario 188 provinces.) The main problem is the province density. A province in HOI represents the area that one division can control, effectively deny an enemy from operating and come together to form a coherent defense. In WW2, with good infrastructure and the right terrain, a single division could control a huge geographic area. Bad roads and infrastructure made this area smaller as divisional assets had to stay closer to be mutually supporting. Large local populations also made this area smaller as the division had to be secure a much larger population.

Bearing this in mind, the HOI map is not granular enough for China. Zhejiang province in Eastern China is represented by four HOI 2 provinces. This is less than Denmark despite being having over twice the size, 10 times more population and far more historic combat during the period. Where this has real consequences is in defense. It's perfectly historical that there might 20+ Chinese divisions in an area the geographic size of that province.

What's not historical is that the defenders could support each other over an area that large. Two divisions in China could be 15 km apart as the crow flies but a week apart in travel time, yet those same divisions will instantly become a mutually supporting stack if there province is attacked. The province size makes Chinese defending superstacks possible. Far worse for the game balance, is that the Japanese can advance as a single cohesive wave with no holes. Even with a million troops on the ground, they couldn't hope to maintain a coherent front and they didn't try. All they could effectively control were the cities and the rails between them with periodic sweeps into the vastly larger countryside. The strategy was called “points and lines.” Whole Chinese armies, almost 500,000 nationalist troops and over a million communist ones were stationed behind Japanese lines when the war ended. With the current size Japanese strategy is just “invincible blob.” There is no risk of Japanese spearheads becoming dispersed and vulnerable to encirclement. There is no representation of how much of an obstruction even small amounts intervening terrain were to command and coordination once they got away from the rails. Historically, the Japanese could and did win victories all across the front but still had to leave huge amounts of real estate unoccupied and full of Chinese troops.

 

[Rickbrks]

Upgrade Time / Cost problem

Thank you for the open beta.

Playing as te Soviets from 1936, I have noticed very strange behavior in upgrade time / costs.
In March 1941, the production page lists 50.73 IC needed for 174 obsolete divisions and 85 obsolete brigades.
I have been fully funding the upgrade for 12 months and no infantry has been upgraded.
Checking the save file, it lists most of them as 35% complete after roughly 12 months.

I strongly suspect this is a bug related to standing / drafted army.

Has anyone else noticed problem with upgrade time / costs?

I will check it with the open beta 2 files and let you know if there is any difference.

Update: Problem was fixed with 104RC4.

 

[Syntalynder]

The way terrain works in AOD is that no one ever gets a bonus...

[ABRIDGED]

....Historically, the Japanese could and did win victories all across the front but still had to leave huge amounts of real estate unoccupied and full of Chinese troops.

Thank you for that illuminating post Porkman. One of the best I've seen on here.