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Opening the can of worms......(Timurid Empire)

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Thought I'd give a quick update from my latest 1.03/ EEP .02 GC. I'm playing Byzantium (kudos to the designers of the new Byzantine events, they are excellent).

In 1449, just *prior* to the big "disintigration of the Timurid Empire" event, they have lost the following territories because of rebel defections:

to Oman: Basrah, Hamadan, Awhaz, Isfahan, Fars, Tabaristan
to Baluchistan: Mekran, Zahedan, Baluchistan, Kalat, Hormouz
to Delhi: Kabul, Quetta
to Uzbekistan: Elbruz, Turkmenistan, Karabogaz, Khwarizm, Khiva

The Omani defections are particularly disturbing, as Persian formation is likely to never occur now, or be very, very weak. I suspect that by 1470 or so, the entire empire will yet again be gone, and the Mughals will fail to appear in my 5th straight game. I'll report again after another 20-30 years of my GC.
 
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The oman thing is fixable by just giving basrah to Qara Koyunlu. You could make a definate case for postponing the Baluchistan revolt period to the same era as the Persian one, from what little I could find on it the capital was founded in 1487, so that's about right. Doing these two things should cut down on the problem of other shiite nations conquering persia.

As for the defections to the Uzbeks and Qara Koyunlu, well, thats pretty much supposed to happpen, the timurids in real life were just a small country in afghanistan by the 1500 in real life. Moving the capital to Kabul in 1500 helps, having Delhi surrender more land in 1510 helps, beyond that I don't really know what else can be done.
 
Well, I have the results from 2 more GC's to report. In my Byzantine campaign, the Timurids were gradually eaten away by the 4 surrounding powers (Baluchistan, Delhi, Uzbek, and Oman) until their final annexation by the Uzbeks in 1493. Oman's possesion of the Persian core provinces prevented Persia from coming into being, and of course the Mughals never formed.

I then ran a "hands off" GC as Dakota and watched the Timurids. Once again, Oman took the western portion of the Timurid Empire well before the 1450 disintigration event. In 1468, during the height of the event, Delhi, the Uzbeks, and their allies launched a simulataneous attack. The Timurid government broke when they held a grand total of 2 provinces (the capital and the one to the west), and within a decade they lost both of those. Once again, both Persia and the Mughals failed to form.

I see 2 clear trends here. If Oman makes inroads into the Basrah/Isfahan/Fars region, Persia fails to form and Delhi/the Uzbeks/Baluchistan/Oman wipe the Timurids out. If Oman doesn't take the Shiite provinces, Persia forms and it crushes the Timurids (with help from Delhi etc).

Either way, there are problems. I certainly don't think that the Mughals and Persia should exist in every game. However, I think the odds for them both appearing should be much better than they currently are. In 6 1.03 GC's with the .02 EEP, I have seen:

Both the Mughal Empire and Persia: 0 times (I feel this should happen 33 - 50%, not 0!!! And they should have a shot at being healthy states, not 2-province travesties!)
Persia alone: 4 times
Mughals alone: 0 times

Time to rethink this region of the world, scripters!
 
Again, get the hell rid of the Oman trading posts or give Basrah to Qara Koyunlu. Just go edit into the scenario file for oman, delete the basrah province from owned, controlled, and add it for qara koyunlu, then copy the city information for that province. Or else delete the two trading post entries and remove them from the owned and controlled sections.


Go download the events I've posted and see if those help. If they don't, kill the first political turmoil event. I've noticed that the right events seem to be happening, they just happen about 30-40 years early. That should slow things down a bit, but it might make the timurids too powerful in the beginning.


edit: Oh, and change the revolt start date for baluchistan in your revolt.txt file to 1487, I tried that in my latest game and it doesn't seem to cause any problems while keeping persia out of baluchi hands.
 
The collapse of the Timurids seems to be sensitive to the aggresion level the game is played at. When I play at weakling the Uzbeks and Delhi attack the Timurids less, which makes them less likely to suffer catastrophic collapses and thus have a good chance of surviving the bad times.
 
Good ideas about Oman/Baluchistan/etc, Dracleath. I'm hoping that they get incorporated into EEP .03, which is why I keep bringing this topic up. Are you part of the team scripting events for the Persia/India region?

One quick question for you: I cannot seem to find the new political turmoil event anywhere (the one that takes place under Shah Ruhk). It's not in the Timurid major event file, and there isn't an EEP Timurid file. Do you know where it is?
 
I'm wondering if some of the manditory revolt provinces of Persia could be nade optional since if 1 successfully revolts and forns persia, all the main ones join, but not optional ones,

Still don't have an idea for the omans other than to make some events to hamper then against the timurids,

As for the herat revolter, i will also make another event to have it join Afghanistan if it survives the first event to dissolve it,
 
Originally posted by Jinnai
I'm wondering if some of the manditory revolt provinces of Persia could be nade optional since if 1 successfully revolts and forns persia, all the main ones join, but not optional ones,
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I just want to point out that EU II does not evaulate the manditory revolt provinces. That is, if only one province is in rebel control, the country may declare independence.

Also, [alert: NDA violation] in 1.04 Persia cannot revolt until 1480.
 
I'm just posting this here to give the scripters some hope. Playing at max hardness max aggression as England, the Timurid's have not only survived but thrived and become the Mughuls. Persia successfully formed, as well as Baluchistan. The Mughuls took Delhi and diploannexed the Chagtai. The only problem was that the Uzbeks didn't move south. In 1559 the Mughul empire has over 30 provinces and continues to expand until my English begin their conquest of India a few hundred years early.
 
I don't know if it is causing the problems, but many of the countries' knowledge of the world prevents them from expanding in the Middle East, just check the Ak Koyunlu map and you'll see that they have more knowledge of Russia and Western Europe than of the Middle East.
If correcting the maps will completely solve the problem I don't know but it might make a difference.
 
The Timurids should know of provinces 1600 - 1603 (Tian Shan to Chagatai) as Timur sacked Kara Shahr in 1399, maybe more as he was preparing to attack China when he died in 1405. In 1391 he lead his forces to Kunduzcha roughly along the route Samarkand-Uzbek-PTI:confused:-Kyzylkum-Karsak-Aralsk-Orsk-Kurgan-Orenburg-Samara-Kazan. On the other hand I don't think any non-Golden Horde Mongols should start with maps beyond Poland-Hungary-Egypt.

In EEP v0.2 the leader Shâh Rûkh is not a monarch (which let Ulugh Muhammad steal a siege off him:mad: ) and dies 10 days after he dies as a monarch (12 March 1447 vs 2 March 1447).

Finally, Timur and his descendents were Turkicized Mongols (or vice versa?) so should they get Turkish culture before changing tag? On the other hand most of the true Mongols are in PTI, so mongol culture in the game is actually a mix of Mongol, Turkish, Cuman, Bulgar, Alan etc culture just like the Timurids. I suppose the question could best be answered by looking to see whether the Timurids had more problems in their Turkish provinces than in their Mongol ones.
 
Originally posted by State Machine

Also, [alert: NDA violation] in 1.04 Persia cannot revolt until 1480.
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Well that should help alot...every game i played they formed before 1440, usually before 1430.

But that still leaves the potential problem of Oman....
 
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