So after watching the finale of the show, it has come to me that there should be an option to "break the wheel" if you take the Iron Throne. This should involve destroying the Iron Throne itself and making the succession Elective.
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I don't know about destroying the Iron Throne, but perhaps creating a decision only available to rulers of a particular disposition that triggers the "overthrow the monarchy of X" result for creating an Noble Oligarchy, would be nice.
(I mean the main reason I never start as the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms/Ageon even when I want to play a big king of westeros game, is because I prefer to play as a Noble Oligarchy, which effectively is the what you're referring to functionally. Only as things are last I checked, you can only form such an oligarchy via faction rebellion.)
(I mean the main reason I never start as the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms/Ageon even when I want to play a big king of westeros game, is because I prefer to play as a Noble Oligarchy, which effectively is the what you're referring to functionally. Only as things are last I checked, you can only form such an oligarchy via faction rebellion.)
Yeah it could be made a noble oligarchy, though isn't that the same as a "freehold". Anyway the option could be given to dissolve the Seven Kingdoms too.
It'll be interesting to see how the AGOT mod grapples with the end of the series, since 1.) Arya being Westerosi Columbus implies that the world of AGOT is actually nearing EU4 levels of global interconnectivity, albeit early EU4, along with 2.) that the Iron Throne just lost the North, with the Iron Isles and Dorne probably about to skedaddle as well.
AGOT Mod is based on the books rather than the TV series, so I'm not sure it'd have to grapple with much of anything...
Besides, kingdoms secede all the time in the game, and we all know about the dragon-riding human-sacrificing Sunlanders on the other side of the sea.
Besides, kingdoms secede all the time in the game, and we all know about the dragon-riding human-sacrificing Sunlanders on the other side of the sea.
Well the best way to grapple with 1 (though as das said, there is no reason, at least for now since the mod follows the books) is to do it exactly the way the books did.
Namely: "Hey, your character wants to go see what is west of westeros? Well you tried your best, but only got a little far. What's that? You've built a big ship to go west? Well you got a little further but had to come back or got lost at sea. What's that, you've built the greatest most epic ship in recorded history? Congratulations! You're never heard from again!"
Plus maybe add a special flag to the character's artefact ship they disappear with so it can show up in world tours touching Asshai, or some other eastern places decades or centuries later.
I suspect that whatever the final outcome is in the books, the mod will allow for several appropriate variations of.
That’s not breaking the wheel, that’s enhancing the wheel. Dany describes the wheel as “that one is on top, now that one is on top". That’s literally elective monarchy. There was no structural change in Westeros in the books. The ruling elites weren’t displaced, rule is still hereditary for everyone but the king and feudalism remains unchallenged. The wheel goes on stronger than ever, especially now that the Crown’s central authority has collapsed. That elective monarchy alone broke the wheel is the biggest joke of the show.
Plus, Dany wants to reestablish the Targaryen dynasty, not institute elective monarchy.
Plus, Dany wants to reestablish the Targaryen dynasty, not institute elective monarchy.
It was never made quite clear what "breaking the wheel" meant in the first place (and that's the point of the last episode of the show). Daenerys was convinced it meant "freeing people from tyrants". And then becoming the next tyrant (but since she's benevolent, it's ok, right?). It made sense in the east because it meant ending slavery and castes, so there was definitly something to end there.
In Westeros it's more complicated. The nobility in in power, that's true, but they don't need to be tyrants to rule. The law and the gods are supposed to be safeguards (as well as advisors of all kinds).
Technically, "breaking the wheel" means more "destroying the current nobility and replacing it with a new one". It's some kind of "draining the swamp" thing.
The whole problem of Daenerys is that she learnt to rule in a place with very different laws and cultures compared to the Iron Throne.
An elective monarchy is a way to prevent people like Jeoffrey or even Stannis to access the throne, but it gives more power to the elective council. It breaks a tradition, but a "wheel"? No, the wheel countinues to rotate, and in the show more than ever (it's symbolic that the one in charge of the kingdoms is some kind of historian).
Breaking the wheel is more like an idealistic idea, much like what Sam proposes while the council seeks a solution.
In Westeros it's more complicated. The nobility in in power, that's true, but they don't need to be tyrants to rule. The law and the gods are supposed to be safeguards (as well as advisors of all kinds).
Technically, "breaking the wheel" means more "destroying the current nobility and replacing it with a new one". It's some kind of "draining the swamp" thing.
The whole problem of Daenerys is that she learnt to rule in a place with very different laws and cultures compared to the Iron Throne.
An elective monarchy is a way to prevent people like Jeoffrey or even Stannis to access the throne, but it gives more power to the elective council. It breaks a tradition, but a "wheel"? No, the wheel countinues to rotate, and in the show more than ever (it's symbolic that the one in charge of the kingdoms is some kind of historian).
Breaking the wheel is more like an idealistic idea, much like what Sam proposes while the council seeks a solution.
imperial succession with LP's as electors would be cool?
im not quite caught up on the show so can't speak for it. but if elective succession in game is being talked about, that could be fun.
im not quite caught up on the show so can't speak for it. but if elective succession in game is being talked about, that could be fun.
I am neither advocating that the modders follow the TV show's events, nor that they introduce completely non-canon fan content, but I still think that the following videos were intriguingly CK2-like and relevant to the stuff being discussed here.
@Ictivion
@Ictivion
I mean, honestly, I think it should be an important late-game event. Most of the mod covers events before ASOIAF anyway, and so maybe "hey, remember that girl you sent on a suicide mission to the end of the Earth? Well... she came back. With news." could occur, and so the last 50 years there is a mechanic where Westrosi and perhaps eastern Essosi nations could spend a chunk of gold to acquire a colony, similar to the current colonization mechanic, can happen. In return, troops/money/artefacts/etc could be given to the character, along with perhaps a reduction in rebelliousness. This could be vital in, say, the newly independent Stark kingdom in the North, where the Knight's Watch as an entity is gone but the former knights are running amok and shipping them to Aryos could be a fix
I always thought westeros was america. colonised by andals, it's america shaped. has american animals.
also, wait, every single dothraki moved to westeros? in one go? leaving no one behind on the giant steppes..
that's..
The mod should have something for breaking up the iron throne, not because of show just because of the type of game it is. and winning independence then getting a treaty to say definitely not de jure anymore you lose the reclaim for iron throne CB on us unless you have dragons again, should be a thing.
Maybe a sucessor e-level kingdom for the former crownlands? for if everyone leaves. Or if Aegon's conquests only get that far before he succumbs to RNG. With the Kings guard and trappings but none of the CB on rest of the continent-ness.
also, wait, every single dothraki moved to westeros? in one go? leaving no one behind on the giant steppes..
that's..
The mod should have something for breaking up the iron throne, not because of show just because of the type of game it is. and winning independence then getting a treaty to say definitely not de jure anymore you lose the reclaim for iron throne CB on us unless you have dragons again, should be a thing.
Maybe a sucessor e-level kingdom for the former crownlands? for if everyone leaves. Or if Aegon's conquests only get that far before he succumbs to RNG. With the Kings guard and trappings but none of the CB on rest of the continent-ness.
My issue is that I've no idea how that could actually be implemented in CK2 in a logical way.
Now if this was an EU4 mod, this could absolutely be done so that exploring west is ridiculously hard, but right off the bat, you can't just expand the map in CK2. Best they could do to simulate a hidden western continent is maybe use the Jade Dragon China mechanic except instead of an emperor, the interaction would be with some Ruins-type abstract entity you invest into as your colony instead of gaining favour.
That said, that's entirely outside of what CK2's system is equipped to handle or in fact that would make sense in the mod during normal gameplay. The discovery of a foreign continent that is anything more than a neat place that is way too far away to establish regular contact with would be a game changer for Westeros. Literally. I know I'm repeating myself, but only EU4 is properly equipped for that; and "last 50 years" might sound good on paper, but as things are, the mod is set up in a way that I don't think the mod developers expect anyone to *reach* the last 50 years. Not because of the White Walkers, but because simply they've set the end date to be 9999/12/31, which I believe is as far as the engine is equipped to go.
The mod's set up to be a massive sandbox, and I don't see there being and end-game introduced beyond the White Walkers.
1. We go by book canon here, thank God. Hopefully it stays that way. If you want a show mod, I encourage you to make one. I'm sure a lot of people will like it.
2. Show Dany didn't break anything, and neither did the council of bad writing that made Westeros elective. If anything, as others have said, she made it stronger.
3. Arya's 'NO ONE KNOOOWS' exploration theme has been done multiple times in book canon. It's how Lonely Light was discovered. Dragonriders, sailors, Ironborn, etc. - all have gone west, and found nothing but ocean. I'm sure that Arya will magically find something if the idiots who wrote the TV show need to wring more money out of a spinoff, but this mod goes off book canon, again.
Fire & Blood introduced a new archipelago of three small islands that are far to the west of Lonely Light, BTW.
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon,_Rhaenys,_and_Visenya_(islands)
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon,_Rhaenys,_and_Visenya_(islands)
I forgot about those, but even so, as far as ASOIAF is concerned, we're almost definitely never going to see anything outside the lands that already exist. At least I hope not, since that would mean more deviation from the main plot. But that's up to GRRM, not me.
It's Britain, colonized first by Celts (First Men), then Germans (Andals).
I mean if there's one thing you can definitely count on GRRM for, it's deviation from the main plot.
it has crocodiles, and two large continents with a skinny bridge inbetween them., and islands in the bay between them covered in pirates, and bears and its really really big. Like really big. Also, where is europe if not essos? covered in fantasy italian banks and republics, go passed that you get the middle easty places and steppes on the same continent and china past them. And to the west, across a sea. Westeros. with it's crocodiles/alligators, bears, potatoes and sizeness. Only probably bigger because its weirdly big.
anyway the point is, the colonialism and EU stuff sounds lame and hits the hardcap for the dates but having options to confederise/decentralise/break up the iron throne would be really fun.
Especially given how in the game anything can happen. Especially if you have the anyone can ride dragons rule turned on.
Having success states or different ways of organising the throne would be fun. Recognising kingdoms as truely, not just temporarily independent from it too.
Also more king's guards. After the iron throne ends the idea of kings guards exist so surely every king would want one.
anyway the point is, the colonialism and EU stuff sounds lame and hits the hardcap for the dates but having options to confederise/decentralise/break up the iron throne would be really fun.
Especially given how in the game anything can happen. Especially if you have the anyone can ride dragons rule turned on.
Having success states or different ways of organising the throne would be fun. Recognising kingdoms as truely, not just temporarily independent from it too.
Also more king's guards. After the iron throne ends the idea of kings guards exist so surely every king would want one.