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EvilEyeSigma

Second Lieutenant
32 Badges
May 25, 2019
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With Archon Prophecy Triumph did a pretty good work making the classic Angelic/Archon theme feel complete, with Tome of Virtue and Tome of the Archon you have everything you need to have a celestial heavy army in a self contained way.

Which brings me to the other side of the coin, over the course of the game there have been plenty of concepts that simply do not have enough to stand by themselves and just are a throw away without coherent follow up.

Two tomes is the minimun to have a complete concept, and that is why one can argue that Tome of Frost and Deep Dark, while barebones, at very least are enough to make your empire feel like an artic power, the next tomes do not even get that.

True orphans, these are truly on their own and are totally disjoined from everything.

Tome of Fey mists: This is the most evident and visible orphan tome, it builds up for a fey centric strategy and then... it ends there, no more Fae are present in helping its strategy, no more thematic fairy tomes, without luck with ancient wonders you get only three Fae units and the Horned God is not a unit for Fae, but for plants and animals, Season 3 needs at least one more fae tome and new fairy units, you simply cannot do very well a fairy centric empire with just fey mist, it is isolated from everything. Triumph made Celestials and Infernal Demons on par with each other, but Fae are at the bottom of availibility along with Accursed Demons... talking about them.

Tome of Calamity: This Tome by itself is excelletn and complete, it self countains all accursed demons... at T4, you go all the game without using them at any capacity, and unlike the prosperity counterpart one can at least argue you taste both Dragons and Celestials before reaching prosperity, Accursed Demons are the most uncommon unit type in the game and you cannot build a youkai army until end game and even if the Tome is really good it has little support specifically for the youkai empire since in the end of the day it is a single tome, they do have minor synergy with the infernal tomes and that is great for a combined demon army but infernal demons and accursed demons are far from being the same.

Orphans with marginal support: These have more thematic support... under very restrained conditions and in practice they really need more support.

Tome of the Dreadnough: A great gunpodwer tome and magitech thematic force that makes you be able to play the early modern fantasy... if you choose Reaver, if you are not Reaver it is a thematic clash that barely fits anywhere, and even with Reavers the support it gives for a gunpodwer faction is minimal, as it stands we need other tome for the theme, by itself complements Reaver a bit and is a lone weirdo for everyone else, hardly soemthing to build a strategy.

Tome of Corruption: This tome by itself is a very small shadow (heh) or what the Shadow demon faction coul offer, you CAN make a Umbral Demon empire... with Umbral abyss enabled, without it umbral demons are the most incomplete thematic you can pursue, its T5 is boss only, it only has a single umbral unit, and nothign really benefits Umbral demons themselves to make you want to use them beyond Umbral malady inmunity, i have mentioned you need a society trait to be able to spread gloom? Umbral Demons NEED support, Tome of the Tentacle has a weak thematic link the same way Alchemy and Trasnbmutation get but these clearly do not help each other. At least other Umbral tome to complement Umbral armies is needed and another tome to link them to undead, because it is a is quite baffling that Urrah is both the master of Undead and Umbral abyss and yet these two do not work well at all together, here is where Calamity got a thign right by working well with Infernal demons, Undead and Umbral should work if you choose to pursue both, like how Prosperity works with Dragon or Celestial bonuses... talking about Prosperity.

Special case.

Tome of Prosperity
: It has the same inherent issues as Calamity in which you never see prosperity units until endgame, no Prosperity armies and no thematic cohesion to base your empire in the Mandate of Heaven, it is not a total ofphan purely because Celestial and Dragon Support DOES work with them so at very least once you reach prosperity you can build a strategy around them, and Tome of Discipline does stick to this better than Tencacle (no use for Umbral in itself) and Shade (A rouge tome in every sense unrelated to youkai) this is admitedly the theme with least need for more tomes in season 3 by a fair margin, but still was worth pointing this out.
 
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Concepts should start and evolve from t1 to t4 tomes, with t5 tome being capstone for all strategies and archetypes within affinities. They could also be mixed for further hybrid strategic paths. We need more tomes for dark and frost too.
 
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I'd argue that tome of Wind, tome of the Horde, tome of Shades and tome of the Stormborne are in a similar position.

Personally I'm much more interested in seeing their themes expanded than the themes you mentioned but everyone has their own preferences.
 
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i mean i could argue archon and revenant could also be expanded like for example calamity and prosperity can go further in it since dragon veins are quite popular in those themes and they are linked to ruin and prosperity, not only that creating tomes that give prosperous weapons(for lack of better name) who gives an effect of increasing damage for order nature and a buff to dispel a buff on enemy similar, we can have ruin blades and staves who give ghost fire as a debuff for staves

other things we can get is more synergy with desolated terrain by creating structures or improvements on it plus more accursed units or even a t3 battle mage racial unit

add some minor transformations or even a major transformation to accursed demon as t3 tome since i mean i dont think the accursed will have fly and most not fly major are t3

for prosperous we can have more buildings generating or improving the economy as i mean prosperity is mostly looked as abundance or even have some imperium related buildings since what else in the game can show your prosperity than imperium it can also have a t3 stave unit and some minor transformation regarding grace and other options

as for the last what i say about dragon veins could be something like the gloom altar but in this case is either something that empowers you units or just celestial/dragons(since this seems the 2 types it contains) or increase the yield of each node or giving imperium or maybe divide the bonus by different province improvement, we can also have what is a ruined dragon vein who does something similar to prosperity but with desolate and affecting dragon/fiend types since they are the ones featured in it

if they seem similar i mean the tomes do have similar functions but opposite

with archon and revenant, i would argue virtue is linked to archon so we would need to get a t1 and t3,one could argue currently without archon and virtue order is more into faith and extreme fanatism, meanwhile this 2 delve more into you and your warriors being divine in nature or heroic

revenant seems more a fall from grace sort of thing

personally i am not opposed to expanding existing themes be it introduced in base or dlc
 
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Absolutely yes for more Fey tomes, but Tome of Fertility is definitely fey adjacent 'cause of Nymph (she is a fey/plant). Furthermore as you mentioned with Horned God and Nymph are plants, meaning other plant based tomes are fitting addition to those.
So all and all it is Tome of Roots T1 (plant unit) + Tome of Fertility T2 (fey unit - Nymph) + Tome of Glades T2 (plant unit) + Tome of Mist T2 (fey unit/enchantment) + Tome of Cycles T3 (Druid is a plant) + Tome of Nature's Wrath T4 (fey unit - Horned God) and then Tome of Paradise T4 'cause everything becomes a plant at this point.
(in comparison to Frost when it is 2 tomes and essentially nothing)

Tome of the Dreadnought is your golem/construct tome, the thing about those is 3 affinity path Materium/Order/Chaos (and even Shadow if we count Tome of Severing) but other than that there is clear construct theme/progression there.
In short: Tome of Enchantment T1 (little golems) + Tome of Artificing T2 (shield golems) + Tome of Construct T2 (golem unit, but the buffs for constructs are the main thing) + Tome of Dreadnought T3 (range construct + good buffs for constructs) + Tome of Golden Golem T4 (obviously the big golden dude) + Tome of Severing T4 (golem mage)
So imo that one (Tome of the Dreadnough) is in a good spot. (comparatively speaking)

Tome of Prosperity is for for all intents and purposes a dragon tome imo, as you mentioned yourself. (still would be great to have more dragon tomes)


I would say Tome of Winds and Tome of the Stormborne is in more dire straits.
One is just "surprise!" Tome of Winds is here, kinda works with Tome of Shades but other than that there is nothing. (and even that isn't particularly great thematically)
Another is a water/ lightning tome mix that wouldn't hurt from at least one additional water tome of some sort.
 
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Outside of frost tomes, nothing else "needs" an expansion. Calamity is anti Prosperity. Thus full. Dreadnaught is a continuation of constructs, flintlocks are just a part of industrialization, 2 cultures fit the profile. Stormborne is a split from Astral to touch nature path with oceanic theme, but the game doesn't support water gameplay overall.

Thus only frost theme is absent, since it's in the same theme as necromancy, not separated from it.
 
Outside of frost tomes, nothing else "needs" an expansion. Calamity is anti Prosperity. Thus full. Dreadnaught is a continuation of constructs, flintlocks are just a part of industrialization, 2 cultures fit the profile. Stormborne is a split from Astral to touch nature path with oceanic theme, but the game doesn't support water gameplay overall.

Thus only frost theme is absent, since it's in the same theme as necromancy, not separated from it.
What about umbrals and pure void/shadow/eldritch theme? Shouldn't there be a clear tome path for this theme seperate from necromancers and frostlings?
 
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What about umbrals and pure void/shadow/eldritch theme? Shouldn't there be a clear tome path for this theme seperate from necromancers and frostlings?
No, not really. Umbral demons are designed to be as something out of players command

That said, iirc Jordi said we will get the ability to get those demons, so idk. Anyway, corruption is already in the game, through 2 tomes+ dwellings.
 
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...
Thus only frost theme is absent, since it's in the same theme as necromancy, not separated from it.
C'mon Tome of Winds is just sitting there crying all alone.

Also yeah, what Sep said. What about Tome of Oblivion, it is in a thematic limbo of a sort. It is not about undead or eldritch and more of it own thing that is just there.

No, not really. Umbral demons are designed to be as something out of players command

That said, iirc Jordi said we will get the ability to get those demons, so idk. Anyway, corruption is already in the game, through 2 tomes+ dwellings.
Nice.
Lol some dude made like 2 or 3 threads with that exact request, so he would probably be ecstatic. xD
 
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C'mon Tome of Winds is just sitting there crying all alone.

Also yeah, what Sep said. What about Tome of Oblivion, it is in a thematic limbo of a sort. It is not about undead or eldritch and more of it own thing that is just there.


Nice.
Lol some dude made like 2 or 3 threads with that exact request, so he would probably be ecstatic. xD
Well, Materium has 2 themes. Constructs and elemental+earth. Winds are tied to elementals, in their case it's sand and dust.

As for oblivion - idk what to add to it, tbh. It's kinda self sufficient in theme. Maybe buff it a bit and add enchantment/transformation?
 
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Well, Materium has 2 themes. Constructs and elemental+earth. Winds are tied to elementals, in their case it's sand and dust.

As for oblivion - idk what to add to it, tbh. It's kinda self sufficient in theme. Maybe buff it a bit and add enchantment/transformation?
From top of my head it could probably synergize with Tome of Shades better, like Devouring Void having a chance of blind or something. (but yeah that tome is kinda just there on its own)
 
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I could imagine another tome of winds with a strategic spell like aow1 tornado.

But maybe that would be too strong. A tornado could just apply damage and a ranged debuff for instance. That version could more easily be t1 rather than t3.
 
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No, they should not. Main theme of AoW4 is flexibility. That can make industrious culture that can worship any affinity or specific element in it without any restrictions, thus the flexibility of tomes.

Not saying cultures should not get stuff, but tomes are the key feature of the game. Thus the meat is there.
 
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Mechanically Dreadnough works with Golems indeed, but thematically the gunpodwer/tech theme that the original dradnought had is left hanging.

Umbral Demons straight up only work in Umbral Abyss maps.

I admit that stormborne and Naga is also isolated, i think i did not noticed it because it works extremely well with normal Astral tomes, same for Oblivion, those two need atention too.

Again i think two tomes per theme is enought, asking for 4 is not being realistic. Frost is in a bad spot on units but as thematic empire building is unmatched, you cannot do a desert or jungle empire the same way you can do an artic empire.
 
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As normal when I post here, I'll take the pro-Triumph position that the current tomes are excellent and demanding prepackaged aspects defeats customization both mechanically and thematically.

1. We'll use the example of Fey Mists. It provides interactions with the marked condition, being obscured, buffs supports, defends cities and encourages a more positional style of play without direct formation. Those are the mechanics of how it functions. Every one of those mechanics has other tomes or cultures or whatever else that will benefit from synergizing with them. You could take Cleansing Flame + Fey Mists and be an absolute menace to siege. Or you could take Alchemy, Warding, Fey Mists and Revels to make your skalds an uber support. Anything that deal with movement, like teleportation.

2. Thematically, isn't it nice to have variety? Say I took Fey Mists and then Cold Dark for a winter-fey vibe. Or Mayhem for a tricky fey vibe. There's infinite creative decisions you could make about what kind of fey faction you are.

However, I will agree on one thing. Some Tomes are on an island: Corruption comes to mind. I almost never have reason to pick it for creative or mechanical reasons. But that's an exception.

More importantly though, I think the Tomes that DO need to be taken together for a theme are my least favorite. For instance, if you're playing a shadow faction you almost always have to choose between undead or cold. Well, what if I want something else? Too bad, because those are your tier Is and tier IIIs. Not to mention the tier V shadow tome is pointless unless you're going with undead. Now we're adding in a new Tier IV tome that also is meant for undead even more heavily than Reaper was. Once again, this is an exception. You don't NEED to take Construct and Dreadnaught together, they function just fine apart and they have different synergies both thematically and mechanically.

My ideal set up of tomes is that every single is a gear that can interlock with various different strategies very effectively rather than a gear that is built specifically to plug into 1-3 other gears. In general, Triumph has done an excellent job of that.
 
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