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121413

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Jun 2, 2025
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The game has been released for 5 years, but it remains the same as when it first launched: a terrible economic system, a nonexistent diplomacy system, and the worst numerical balance imaginable. Why can players easily crush AI rulers? Because Paradox never listens to suggestions to balance the numbers or improve AI logic. For 5 years, the game's playability still can't match that of *Crusader Kings II* and *Europa Universalis IV*—it's really just because Paradox is lazy! They're too arrogant, and this game is extremely disappointing. Now, the game keeps making money through DLCs, forcing players to rely on mods to restore content that this strategy game should have had in the first place!
 
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At this point, I have to say that, from my perspective, none of you proved nothing.
 
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Guess what it's called when the king doesn't have the ability to keep his administration in line: INCOMPETENCE
Guess what it's called when vassals weaken the entire realm and are completely disloyal to further their cheap power plays: INCOMPETENCE
Guess what it's called when the Emperor doesn't ensure the administrations workings: INCOMPETENCE
Guess what it's called when republic city states and noble families undermine the emperor and administration to further their cheap powerplays: INCOMPETENCE
Most crises originate from the incompetence of one or several sucesive rulers. Incompetent rulers and crises have existed in all places and in all historical periods, the problem here is that I think you’ve taken a specific case you read or watched and extended it to the entire Middle Ages

Reading what you wrote... it seems to me that either you've misunderstood a particular case you read about, or you've swallowed some kind of anti-European propaganda. Historians are tired of having to refute the whole 'medieval darkness' myth.
 
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At this point, I have to say that, from my perspective, none of you proved nothing.
What exactly do you want me to prove? Technology?
  1. Have you seen the cathedrals built with Romanesque and Gothic arches in Europe? Do you think the knowledge to build those structures existed beforehand, or was it imported?
  2. Medieval steel was about 20–30% stronger than Roman steel — isn't that technology?
  3. Roman lorica segmentata (the best roman armor) would have been completely useless against the ballistic advances developed during the Middle Ages.
  4. more?
Or maybe you want me to refute the supposed stupidity and lack of ambition of medieval rulers, when there are hundreds of examples proving the opposite?

If someone suddenly (going against the consensus of virtually all medieval historians) comes along claiming that all medieval rulers were idiots and that it was a time of technological stagnation, the burden of proof is on them — not on me to disprove that nonsense.
 
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Most crises originate from the incompetence of one or several sucesive rulers. Incompetent rulers and crises have existed in all places and in all historical periods, the problem here is that I think you’ve taken a specific case you read or watched and extended it to the entire Middle Ages

Reading what you wrote... it seems to me that either you've misunderstood a particular case you read about, or you've swallowed some kind of anti-European propaganda. Historians are tired of having to refute the whole 'medieval darkness' myth.
And this point ur just moving the goalpost, you can't talk of smart rulers when none of the kingdoms or empires that started in the early medieval survived till the end, at this point you are even saying yourself that the reason were incompetent rulers and incompetent vassals with cheap powerplays
"Anti-European" European rulers could barely defend themselves being constantly raided and later on losing Jerusalem every few years
 
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...you can't talk of smart rulers when none of the kingdoms or empires that started in the early medieval survived till the end,
Exactly the same thing that has happened throughout history. Empires or states that endure over time are the exception, not the rule. Because no matter how strong you are, you only need one unsuitable ruler during a crisis for everything to collapse. Even the Roman Empire nearly collapsed three or four times.

How long did Genghis Khan’s Mongol Empire last? Or Alexander the Great’s? The Assyrian Empire? The Umayyad Caliphate? The Almoravids, the Almohads? You’re blaming the Middle Ages for problems that aren’t exclusive to the Middle Ages — the volatility of states across generations.

at this point you are even saying yourself that the reason were incompetent rulers and incompetent vassals with cheap powerplays

I've never said that all rulers were intelligent, only that there was no rule that they had to be stupid or unambitious and many of them were good rulers or even brilliant.
 
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And this point ur just moving the goalpost, you can't talk of smart rulers when none of the kingdoms or empires that started in the early medieval survived till the end, at this point you are even saying yourself that the reason were incompetent rulers and incompetent vassals with cheap powerplays
Oh come on. Medieval period is 1000 years. Very few countries existed for so long, and the ones that did tend to have some usurpation or total collapse into civil war somewhere in their history, preferably both at the same time.
 
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Medieval rulers weren´t retards. They were also ambitious, hatching complex plans, deposing and appointing kings...

Please don't excuse the game's poor AI because there's simply no excuse for it.
They also had advisors (not modeled in game). council (doesnt do anything in the game) or, in worst cases, regents (dont have any such powers in game), so i think they should be a lot more competent overall, with exceptions maybe being lunatics and eccentric ones, but even then - only sometimes

OR, alternatively, the game should force YOU to also act incompetent, either would be fine.
 
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I don't see the need to refute a series of purely dogmatic beliefs, devoid of evidence and invented out of thin air by people who wanted to prove to the world that their way of thinking was correct, even if it meant lying, when academia proved the falsity of such beliefs a good handful of decades ago.
 
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Anyway to get ack to the original point, why would PDX keep putting out free patches instead of paid DLC that sells? Do you think businesses owe you endless free content because the product you bought wasn't what you wanted it to be? Do you think people deserve to be paid for their labor or should they just work for free or for pennies until you're happy with their work? Paid DLC pays for continued development. If there was no DLC for CK3, development would have stopped years ago and we'd all be complaining that CK4 didn't launch with all the features of CK3.
 
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Anyway to get ack to the original point, why would PDX keep putting out free patches instead of paid DLC that sells? Do you think businesses owe you endless free content because the product you bought wasn't what you wanted it to be? Do you think people deserve to be paid for their labor or should they just work for free or for pennies until you're happy with their work? Paid DLC pays for continued development. If there was no DLC for CK3, development would have stopped years ago and we'd all be complaining that CK4 didn't launch with all the features of CK3.
I don't think the original version should be that simplistic. At the very least, when trade and diplomacy systems are introduced in the future, they should be added to the base game. If players have to pay for just a few additional diplomatic interaction options, similar to what happened with Hearts of Iron IV, the game will truly be a disaster. Also, when I was playing today, after one country was forced to pay tribute to another, it kept falling into debt because Paradox set tribute payments to be monthly instead of annual. Even though this poor country owed hundreds, it still had to pay taxes.
 
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Yet again: Survivor bias AND hasty generalization: You generalize an entire century by a few dozens recovered stories of which only few can even be classified as having truly happend and even those can not be proven to have happend exactly as written, propaganda was common even back then it was just different than now, no family or dynastie would ever document of how they lost the majority of their land because they didn't have money to hire soldiers because they wasted that on banquets and prestige to "outrank" the rival family while the rival family would document an elaborate plan with which they took control of the rest of their land through an elaborate marriage even through it was just necessity because the other family now barely had any land left while being in giant debt because of hiring mercenaries leading to them being simply forced to marry into the rival family and giving up the last land and in the end family 1 won't document of how their incompetence lost them their realm while family 2 will document of their "amazing and elaborate diplomatic maneuver" to take fam1s last lands (Fam1 was utterly broke and in debt and had no choice)
Why do you think such marriages continuously happened, if the legitimacy gained from them was actually of no use? Why marry former enemies instead of among your supporters?
Small hint: Calling the natural rehabilitation of a completely devasted Normandy after vikings raids an "outstanding performance" is ludicrous at best, ignoring the norman vikings raiding the rest of France and relocating these riches to normandy till 9th century to further ones point is not just completely cheap it also has nothing to do with "solid administration", ignoring that Normandy already lost its edge in economy in the 12 century to further one's point is also cheap
The Vikings didnt just place all their goods in Normandy after raiding such vast lands tho, plenty took their goods back to Scandinavia and remained there.
Normandy emerging as a united duchy under one dynasty, instead of breaking up into robber barons constantly feuding as you had elsewhere in France is a success, as well as helping repel further Viking raiders.
You can certainly describe Normandy as having solid administration with how much control various dukes were able to gain, to gather forces larger than either the kings of france or england could bring to bear at the time. Innovations in Normandy were ported to England with the Conquest, helping to raise even more money than previous English kings had before
Who do you think Normandy and her economy lost an edge to in the 12th century
And I showed it my Prof. and he said your friend should give that "degree" back to the vendor if he calls copying islamic, Roman and Asien scriptures "scientific advances"
Why do you spell asian as asien, and why do you think scriptures were merely copied, instead of advances actually being made? Is this imaginary professor of some older generation that thinks all learning comes from the East and filters West, despite all innovations in scholarship since?
Guess what it's called when the king doesn't have the ability to keep his administration in line: INCOMPETENC
So by extension, when the administration was kept in line, there was a great deal of competence among the rulers
Guess what it's called when vassals weaken the entire realm and are completely disloyal to further their cheap power plays: INCOMPETENCE
If the vassals win out, is it incompetence?
Guess what it's called when the Emperor doesn't ensure the administrations workings: INCOMPETENCE
So by extension, when the administration was kept in line, there was a great deal of competence among the rulers
Guess what it's called when republic city states and noble families undermine the emperor and administration to further their cheap powerplays: INCOMPETENCE
Is it incompetence if it helps lay the foundations for the city to be rich enough to thrive to the modern day?
At this point it's ridiculous how you try defend ur romanticized fantasy about the medieval times, naming the symptoms and completely ignoring the cause to not have to admit rulers back then we're COMPLETELY stupid and self destructing themselves
Cutthroat politics isn't romanticising the middle ages, it's not romanticisation to say people in the past could think at higher levels than just "want sex", the main thing the ai does reliably
 
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Why do you think such marriages continuously happened, if the legitimacy gained from them was actually of no use? Why marry former enemies instead of among your supporters?
What's next? Saying taxing the hell out of the peasants was a good idea cuz it was done repeatable through the middle ages?
The Vikings didnt just place all their goods in Normandy after raiding such vast lands tho, plenty took their goods back to Scandinavia and remained there.
Doesn't change that more than enough was still placed in Normandy and everyone else was now poorer???
You can certainly describe Normandy as having solid administration with how much control various dukes were able to gain, to gather forces larger than either the kings of france or england could bring to bear at the time
Literally nothing special since neither of those kings had any control over their kingdoms and as such most other landholders could Muster more than them

Normandy emerging as a united duchy under one dynasty, instead of breaking up into robber barons constantly feuding as you had elsewhere in France is a success, as well as helping repel further Viking raiders.
It wasn't a Duchy to begin with but simply multiple small counts, that's like calling the mongols better administrators because they conquered two more advanced kingdoms and those two don't go to war with each other any more because they're both controlled by the mongols now

Who do you think Normandy and her economy lost an edge to in the 12th century
Through natural means, because time caught up, the rest of France recovered from the vikings time and Normandy lost its initial riches making them a completely regular piece of land

Why do you spell asian as asien, and why do you think scriptures were merely copied, instead of advances actually being made? Is this imaginary professor of some older generation that thinks all learning comes from the East and filters West, despite all innovations in scholarship since?
The Renaissance literally was founded on stolen scriptures from Muslim regions and the only thing that kept kings and the church from interfering with the studies of them was that both didn't have the power anymore to control science as much anymore, not just that but the entire Renaissance was progressed by scientists not kings so what's your point even? The only thing ur saying with that is that I'm right and the rulers were incompetent leading educated people to advance europe instead


So by extension, when the administration was kept in line, there was a great deal of competence among the rulers
The administrations can also keep itself in line, a working administrations doesn't equal a competent ruler but a not working administrations equals an incompetent ruler not being able to keep it steady

If the vassals win out, is it incompetence?
Ah yes the brilliance of the Normandy vassals: Being so illoyal to the kings that he doesn't have the power to defend them from the vikings leading to their eviction
Short term subjective "win out" =/= long term objective success / competence

Is it incompetence if it helps lay the foundations for the city to be rich enough to thrive to the modern day?
Ah yes the brilliance of these republic city states: Be so illoyal to the emperor that barbarian Germans just conquer them and turn the republic to feudal administration evicting the ruling nobles or better even: The city gets put to the torch and looted leaving a ruin instead
Yet again: Short term subjective "win out" =/= long term objective success

Cutthroat politics isn't romanticising the middle ages, it's not romanticisation to say people in the past could think at higher levels than just "want sex", the main thing the ai does reliably
"Think of higher levels" ah yes these so called "higher levels": Be illoyal to the king -> king has no troops to defend you -> get killed and evicted -> dynasty dead, but I guess in your head it's "higher level" thinking when a thousand dynasties die out but one survives while all of them were employing this "higher level" thinking
 
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What's next? Saying taxing the hell out of the peasants was a good idea cuz it was done repeatable through the middle ages?
You'll love it when you find out 50% taxes after various surcharges is really only something that can be accomplished with a modern state's apparatus
Doesn't change that more than enough was still placed in Normandy and everyone else was now poorer???
It was prime farmland due to the rainfall it gets, along with new towns and cities being founded, not all of Normandy's wealth came from vikings having raided france and elsewhere beforehand
Literally nothing special since neither of those kings had any control over their kingdoms and as such most other landholders could Muster more than them
How little control of England do you think the kings of England held before the Conquest?
It wasn't a Duchy to begin with but simply multiple small counts, that's like calling the mongols better administrators because they conquered two more advanced kingdoms and those two don't go to war with each other any more because they're both controlled by the mongols now
It wasn't a duchy to begin with, hence "emerge", and the contrast of a single unified duchy is in difference to the robber barons or divided counts elsewhere in France. The mongols would come to fight among themselves within a few gens, so not the best comparison.
Through natural means, because time caught up, the rest of France recovered from the vikings time and Normandy lost its initial riches making them a completely regular piece of land


The Renaissance literally was founded on stolen scriptures from Muslim regions and the only thing that kept kings and the church from interfering with the studies of them was that both didn't have the power anymore to control science as much anymore, not just that but the entire Renaissance was progressed by scientists not kings so what's your point even? The only thing ur saying with that is that I'm right and the rulers were incompetent leading educated people to advance europe instead
You keep saying "scriptures" which has a more religious connotation than texts would. The Renaissance wasn't founded on "stolen" islamic knowledge, given they went above and beyond the work of previous islamic scholars, and popularised latin originals. How many scientists do you think existed in the Renaissance, given it was so long before the modern scientific method? When scholars are patronised by rulers, they help each other out.
The administrations can also keep itself in line, a working administrations doesn't equal a competent ruler but a not working administrations equals an incompetent ruler not being able to keep it steady
How can an administration keep itself in line if there's an incompetent ruler/regent?
Ah yes the brilliance of the Normandy vassals: Being so illoyal to the kings that he doesn't have the power to defend them from the vikings leading to their eviction
Short term subjective "win out" =/= long term objective success / competence
? Illoyal isn't a word, and there were unlikely to be Normandy vassals to be evicted by vikings, given the Normans came afterwards. The Rorgonids and Capets aren't known for being particularly disloyal whilst guarding the March of Neustria as it existed at the time
Ah yes the brilliance of these republic city states: Be so illoyal to the emperor that barbarian Germans just conquer them and turn the republic to feudal administration evicting the ruling nobles or better even: The city gets put to the torch and looted leaving a ruin instead
Yet again: Short term subjective "win out" =/= long term objective success
Milan, Florence, Genoa, Ancona, Siena, Pisa, Bologna lucked out pretty good from gaining more and more autonomy
"Think of higher levels" ah yes these so called "higher levels": Be illoyal to the king -> king has no troops to defend you -> get killed and evicted -> dynasty dead, but I guess in your head it's "higher level" thinking when a thousand dynasties die out but one survives while all of them were employing this "higher level" thinking
Do you think there were a thousand dynasties that died out, after initially being granted lordships, within a century?
 
You'll love it when you find out 50% taxes after various surcharges is really only something that can be accomplished with a modern state's apparatus
You'll love it to find out that taking most of a peasants harvest and forcing them to work for you aswell for free was easily possible and done back then

It was prime farmland due to the rainfall it gets, along with new towns and cities being founded, not all of Normandy's wealth came from vikings having raided france and elsewhere beforehand
Most of france ist "prime farmland" so that point is total bullshit

How little control of England do you think the kings of England held before the Conquest?
Considering that vikings frequently raided them with the kings having no money nor troops to defend or build defences on their lands it should be pretty obvious how little control they had

You keep saying "scriptures" which has a more religious connotation than texts would. The Renaissance wasn't founded on "stolen" islamic knowledge, given they went above and beyond the work of previous islamic scholars, and popularised latin originals. How many scientists do you think existed in the Renaissance, given it was so long before the modern scientific method? When scholars are patronised by rulers, they help each other out.
New knowledge was only created during the late stage of the Renaissance with DaVinci being one of the first to use actual empirical methods, so yes the Renaissance itself was the stealing of knowledge from Arabian and Asian sources going beyond that was done in the next age
Also I don't need to think about how many scientists existed, since estimates have already been made with less than a thousand "scientists" existing before and multiple thousands during the late stage
Also only a fraction of a fraction was patronised by rulers so that point is irrelevant

How can an administration keep itself in line if there's an incompetent ruler/regent?
Guess what: When an incompetent ruler doesn't care for the administration that doesn't mean that he is actively destroying it, as long as he doesn't do that most administrations can keep themselves going for a time

Illoyal isn't a word, and there were unlikely to be Normandy vassals to be evicted by vikings, given the Normans came afterwards. The Rorgonids and Capets aren't known for being particularly disloyal whilst guarding the March of Neustria as it existed at the time
Guess what: American English isn't the only dialect in existence
And what do you think the Normandy was? Some desolate wasteland? It had landholders which were vassals to the French king like any other land in france and these landholders WERE evicted when the vikings took the land, so go on and tell where the "win out" was for these vassals when they refused to show loyalty and withhold troops and taxes from their king so he can't defend them and his land
Milan, Florence, Genoa, Ancona, Siena, Pisa, Bologna lucked out pretty good from gaining more and more autonomy
Milan was nearly completely destroyed during the collapse and only regained status in the 12th century
Genoa was razed and looted during the collaps only regained status in the 10th century
Ancona was looted multiple times during the collaps only regained status in the 11th century
Siena was a minor city that was put under control of the lombards only gained status in the 12th century
Pisa was put under control of lombards and suffered destruction during these wars only gained status in the 10th century
Bologna suffered destruction through the lombards aswell and only gained status in the 10th century
Florence through it's location is the only one which entered stagnation and an early recovery, all other cities you listed suffered during the collapse and were put under feudal control and only regained or gained status CENTURIES later
Do you think there were a thousand dynasties that died out, after initially being granted lordships, within a century?
The middle ages lasted more than a century
And yes, thousands of dynasties and branches died out
 
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