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paradox DLCs aren't like CoD map packs, they aren't just some lazy reskin of the same thing from two years ago. they're actually NEW features

To an extent - but my issue with this is that it's more than possible that the game could have been released with plenty of these features in the first place - and they were intentionally witheld - or that they could instead release significant expansions that far more justify the expense. EUIV, for example, I could see having 3-4 major expansions that each incorporate 3-4 of the DLCs/extra cosmetics etc together. The only reason not to do this is greed.

as for the DLC spam, it's not like PDS just releases a game and then plots out everything they're going to be releasing afterwards for the next 5 years like some grand conspiracy.

Uh, isn't this exactly what does happen? A roadmap? It's not a grand conspiracy, it's just how stuff works. I do not for one second believe that the content that is in a DLC is just an idea that pops into their heads and makes them say "oh, we should add that, it would be cool!" No, it's something they have pre-planned. Look at strategy games from 10-15 years ago and compare the way they were patched/expanded. Games like Dawn of War and Company of Heroes would receive a handful of major patches to address balance and bugs. DoW received three standalone expansions that were essentially each new games, adding tremendous amounts of content that more than justified the cost. CoH received two standalone expansions that equally added a huge amount of content and could basically be considered their own games. Compare this to Company of Heroes 2; this game was released in such a poor state with fundamental issues to it that required it to be patched more times in its first year than its predecessor needed in its entirety. What else were the devs doing? Churning out DLCs that essentially operated as Pay2Win and eventually an expansion with a decent amount of content but so poorly designed that it resulted in the game needing legions of patches, and still remains fundamentally unbalanced.

How about Total War? Rome Total War came with 2 expansions. It was patched just 4 times to address major issues each time. The 2 expansions featured entirely new grand campaigns with huge amounts of content. Medieval II was patched 5 times after its own singular expansion came with 4 unique campaigns and new features. The moddability the devs made available to the community has resulted in mods that are so advanced and amazing they are still being played and developed to this day. Compare that to Rome II or any of the newer Total War games, that are coming out practically every year, with shoddy AI, shallow mechanics and pack after pack of DLC.

what you are doing is seeing the scummiest of AAA publishers and PDX (and i'm going to assume plenty of other developers too) in the same light. it's not like PDS has intentionally removed features only to add them back in as DLC.

I'm not really singling out any particular 'scummy' developer; it's a critique of the industry in general. Games used to be a labour of love - developers wanted to make something amazing, and of course make money from that, but the intent was artistry. I do not believe this is the case any longer. I remember reading about the way Obsidian made Knights of the Old Republic 2, in an attic, with only around 20 people, desperately trying to work to deadlines set by LucasArts that they had to meet or lose funding. They put everything into getting the game as good as they possibly could, but it was not fully finished when it came out. They shipped it with all the data that didn't make it on the disk anyway, so that the community could at length restore it. And regardless of its unfinished nature, the game is still one of the best RPGs ever made; with the restored content, even better. I cannot see any company in this day and age putting that kind of effort into a project. I struggle to see that developers really care anymore.

as for modders- modders have a completely different vision for the game. it's really as simple as that. they are also completely different people.

Of course, I never disputed this. But the key is that modders never work for money. They work because they love the game, because they have a vision for how to make something really damn good and that they want other people to experience it. That's what a game developer should be. The comparison I've drawn between HOI3 and BlackICE is to illustrate this point - HOI3 could have looked like BlackICE. It could have had thousands of historical events and decisions, unique units, historically accurate counters for divisions, a beautifully textured map, far more options for technology and construction, more diverse division options, a more engaged and supported AI... but it did not.

what community are you talking about? because that's one hell of a claim to be making since i'm not seeing torches and pitchforks.

Do you not recall what the sentiment was when the dev diaries were being released? I was with plenty of beta testers who were constantly saying 'we need better AI than this', and PDX's response was 'it will be better for the release version' - and it was not. They ignored the comments made at the time about the lack of OOB, the battle plans and other things. What was the response from the community in general when the game released?

as for AI- do you have any idea how difficult it is to make a AI that's just functional? especially in games like these? yeah it can always get better, but that is something that happens incrementally, and not in huge bursts.

Of course I do; the past years I have spent doing my utmost with incredibly limited tools trying to get the HOI3 AI as functional as possible. The point being, good AI is the absolute most important thing to any good strategy game. PDX have plenty of experience with this, they knew full well that it was #1 on most of the community's priority list, and they did not, in my eyes, really put the effort in to it. For want of a better phrase, HOI4 felt half-assed.

it's not like PDX invented the DLC $20-25 is what it's always been around no matter the game.

It's entirely up to them what they charge. I would simply ask if you think the DLCs that have been released at this price are worth that cost. If you think they represent that much in effort. How much would you pay for a mod?

what we have nowadays is the ability to pick and choose DLC, rather than HAVE to get them in a certain order, rather than HAVE to get them just to stay up to date with THE ACTUAL ****ING GAME! man that pissed me off when i was first introduced to PDS via HOI 3! that just blew my mind, and yes that DID look greedy to me since you were railroaded.

yes the DLCs DO add a ton of new content, but you aren't forced to get them just so that the game is playable at its current update.

True - and this is a good thing that PDX do that not many others do - not requiring all DLCs to play, and multiplayer still being accessible etc. However I remember when I first got into EUIV about a year ago and I asked a friend what DLCs were absolutely essential, since obviously it was daunting to spend hundreds on them all. I was told that in order to get the best from it I really had to get all of them. Is that what a game should be now? That unless you get all the DLCs, you will be missing out on the best experience? What does that say about the state of the game when it is first released? To me, it says that it is barely a fraction of what it could have been.
 
as for AI- do you have any idea how difficult it is to make a AI that's just functional? especially in games like these? yeah it can always get better, but that is something that happens incrementally, and not in huge bursts.

Glavius AI mod makes the AI SIGNIFICANTLY better at managing economy. Not perfect, mind you, but BETTER.

This is done by a single dude who "works" on it in his free time, for free, just by editing txt files.

I don't think it would be so hard to implement some of his workarounds in a patch; it won't fix the AI issue as a whole but IT WOULD HELP. And given that PDX has more resources and tools, it can be easily done better and in less time. But no, Distant Stars is announced and the AI still can't manage fucking base economy, and if you want AI to do it you have to download a mod. Oh, yes, you can select Grand Admiral difficulty and thanks to "cheats" the AI will be somewhat of a challenge, then you will occupy an enemy planet and see his POPs starving and a few scattered buildings here and there. Woo-hoo.

I tell you, if the AI issue isn't addressed prior or during 2.1 Niven i'm done with Paradox. I've bought and extensively played a lot of their games/DLCs, but Stellaris is becoming a trainwreck and the DLC/patch policy is harming the game overall quality, consistently breaking the game.
 
The DLC model is a mess, specially as more content is added that poorly interacts with other mechanisms due to paywalls. But even having the old expansion system wouldn't fix Hoi4 to make it a complex game: the base of the structure are simply too poor. I honestly doesn't know how people find fun in a game that doesn't require almost any meaningful interaction from, but I neither understand idle games. When the telemetry data shows that most people are playing on easy difficulty on an already easy game, maybe PDX is doing the right thing about not caring about Ai but instead adding useless features and more trees to the forest. I have played enough Hoi4 to know that I will never like the game, but paradox isn't going to change their product strategy because some of us want deeper games. And stellaris conceptually isn't looking bad in the things they are doing, and I can see possibilities on the title, but the execution of this concepts is what is hurting it (Ai, war system)
 
To an extent - but my issue with this is that it's more than possible that the game could have been released with plenty of these features in the first place - and they were intentionally witheld - or that they could instead release significant expansions that far more justify the expense. EUIV, for example, I could see having 3-4 major expansions that each incorporate 3-4 of the DLCs/extra cosmetics etc together. The only reason not to do this is greed.
Do you have any insider information or are you just speculating because things may be much more complicated than it may look like.

Uh, isn't this exactly what does happen? A roadmap? It's not a grand conspiracy, it's just how stuff works. I do not for one second believe that the content that is in a DLC is just an idea that pops into their heads and makes them say "oh, we should add that, it would be cool!" No, it's something they have pre-planned. Look at strategy games from 10-15 years ago and compare the way they were patched/expanded. Games like Dawn of War and Company of Heroes would receive a handful of major patches to address balance and bugs. DoW received three standalone expansions that were essentially each new games, adding tremendous amounts of content that more than justified the cost. CoH received two standalone expansions that equally added a huge amount of content and could basically be considered their own games.

I have played Dawn of War and can say that this is wrong, they are not any more impressive than the paradox expansions. I have also played alot of old games and can say that most talk about such games are nostalgic.

How about Total War? Rome Total War came with 2 expansions. It was patched just 4 times to address major issues each time. The 2 expansions featured entirely new grand campaigns with huge amounts of content. Medieval II was patched 5 times after its own singular expansion came with 4 unique campaigns and new features. The moddability the devs made available to the community has resulted in mods that are so advanced and amazing they are still being played and developed to this day. Compare that to Rome II or any of the newer Total War games, that are coming out practically every year, with shoddy AI, shallow mechanics and pack after pack of DLC.

I have played these games and they are not all that impressive nowdays and if I remember correctly they have some issues with stability during battles which can lead to crash to desktop.

I'm not really singling out any particular 'scummy' developer; it's a critique of the industry in general. Games used to be a labour of love - developers wanted to make something amazing, and of course make money from that, but the intent was artistry. I do not believe this is the case any longer. I remember reading about the way Obsidian made Knights of the Old Republic 2, in an attic, with only around 20 people, desperately trying to work to deadlines set by LucasArts that they had to meet or lose funding. They put everything into getting the game as good as they possibly could, but it was not fully finished when it came out. They shipped it with all the data that didn't make it on the disk anyway, so that the community could at length restore it. And regardless of its unfinished nature, the game is still one of the best RPGs ever made; with the restored content, even better. I cannot see any company in this day and age putting that kind of effort into a project. I struggle to see that developers really care anymore.

Consider that paradox choose to delay Hearts of Iron IV for more than a year Point towards this being wrong. If they did not care why would they not just release the game instead of taking one extra year? Anyway have you compared Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 to recent RPG Before you made this statement?

Of course, I never disputed this. But the key is that modders never work for money. They work because they love the game, because they have a vision for how to make something really damn good and that they want other people to experience it. That's what a game developer should be. The comparison I've drawn between HOI3 and BlackICE is to illustrate this point - HOI3 could have looked like BlackICE. It could have had thousands of historical events and decisions, unique units, historically accurate counters for divisions, a beautifully textured map, far more options for technology and construction, more diverse division options, a more engaged and supported AI... but it did not.

It make a huge difference if Money is involved because if Money is involved you can not work on an uneconomical Project indefinitely, business sense is as important as game development in making a successful title. Modders as we all know don't have that hindrens which is why they can make stuff such as BlackICE . Moreover game development is not just content design but about stuff such as actually creating the code, the base of the game something which take huge amount of time. BlackICE would not even have existed if paradox had not made Hearts of Iron III. You should probably make your own game Before you make such as claim such as Hearts of Iron III could have been BlackICE and you may find out why that is not the case.

The DLC model is a mess, specially as more content is added that poorly interacts with other mechanisms due to paywalls.
Something I can agree on but I find a soft paywall being better than a hard one.

And it's not just about Paradox, this is the game industry in general. In the past,, we would get a huge game, and there might be huge expansions for 1-3 years that add a tremendous amount to the point they are essentially new games. Is that what we have nowadays?

More like you would get a smaller game than now which probably cost more when taking account of inflation. Large amount of old games have some issues when it comes to bugs which was left unfixed or perhaps it was not possible to fix them. In terms of expansion, they would get like one expansion which was generally not all that big and not cheaper than what you currently get from Paradox.
 
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Do you have any insider information or are you just speculating because things may be much more complicated than it may look like.

One doesn't need insider information to observe the size and frequency of DLC releases and conclude that they could have been released grouped as more reasonably sized expansions, or included in the release. Perhaps it is more complicated; I doubt this is the reason.

I have played Dawn of War and can say that this is wrong, they are not any more impressive than the paradox expansions. I have also played alot of old games and can say that most talk about such games are nostalgic.

How on earth can you say that, Winter Assault, for example, which included an entirely new faction, new extensive campaign with multiple pathways, new units and new maps along with balance changes and other improvements, is not more 'impressive' - my judgement was not about impressiveness, but substance - than Conquest of Paradise/Wealth of Nations, Together for Victory, or Sword of Islam?

I have played these games and they are not all that impressive nowdays and if I remember correctly they have some issues with stability during battles which can lead to crash to desktop.

Your opinion on how impressive the games are - or how stable they are, which is hardly a point to make in a discussion centered on Paradox - is irrelevant. The way they were released, patched and expanded and how that compares to more recent releases is the point of discussion.

Consider that paradox choose to delay Hearts of Iron IV for more than a year Point towards this being wrong. If they did not care why would they not just release the game instead of taking one extra year?

Because, obviously, they want enough retention in order to sell DLCs? That's, yknow, the whole point? They wouldn't release something entirely broken and unfinished; it wouldn't gain the usual 80%+ reviews on every site that get handed out all the time. One only has to compare the critic to user reviews to see that policy in action.

Anyway have you compared Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 to recent RPG Before you made this statement?

In what sense? One can logically follow its spiritual successors towards Dragon Age and Mass Effect (from the original KOTOR developer, but the point remains) and see how their development and releases looked, culminating in Mass Effect: Andromeda, which was such a disaster the developers decided to stop trying to fix it after a short while (during which time they released a bunch of multiplayer DLCs). Or one could follow Obsidian to Fallout New Vegas and then compare that to Fallout 4. But I fail to see what comparison you are wanting to be drawn here; please extrapolate, as I love to talk about these games.

It make a huge difference if Money is involved because if Money is involved you can not work on an uneconomical Project indefinitely, business sense is as important as game development in making a successful title. Modders as we all know don't have that hindrens which is why they can make stuff such as BlackICE . Moreover game development is not just content design but about stuff such as actually creating the code, the base of the game something which take huge amount of time. BlackICE would not even have existed if paradox had not made Hearts of Iron III. You should probably make your own game Before you make such as claim such as Hearts of Iron III could have been BlackICE and you may find out why that is not the case.

Like I say, I never disputed the core of any studio being a successful business model, and I fully understand the issues that have (sadly) plagued developers over the years - the aforementioned KOTOR2 scenario forcing the developers to rush/cut content because they would lose their funding if they did not meet deadlines. Paradox however have an advantage in being able to develop and produce, which gives a lot more freedom, one would think.

The point is not a complaint that HOI3 came out hollow when it could have been so much more - I fully understand that at the time Paradox simply did not have the money or resources to go down the line (and we did not even have LAA capability when it was released, so a BICE level of development would have been physically impossible anyway) and had to release something, which they then expanded on quite admirably with the three expansions and, most importantly, left it pretty accessible (with still plenty of glaring issues, but even the greatest of games have their flaws) for modding.

This is not the case with HOI4. HOI4 could have been an enormous statement for the grand strategy genre. It could have taken all of the strengths of HOI3, all the elements of its mods that have been so well received, and neutralised all of the major weak points, all on a beautiful new engine. Instead, we got an empty shell of a strategy game that had little more to it than putting bland units under a commander and drawing an arrow on a map.

More like you would get a smaller game than now which probably cost more when taking account of inflation. Large amount of old games have some issues when it comes to bugs which was left unfixed or perhaps it was not possible to fix them. In terms of expansion, they would get like one expansion which was generally not all that big and not cheaper than what you currently get from Paradox.

I do not know, honestly, how you can say the relative substance of these games I refer to is smaller. Look at Medieval II:Kingdoms and then look at Waking the Tiger. Same price, but the content? And above all, when compared to the base game, and what it is adding? As a Medieval II player, I would be awe inspired to receive four entirely new campaigns on new maps with new factions along with new functionality for multiplayer, particularly the hotseat campaign which I never would have even thought possible. As a HOI4 player, I would be revolted by the thought that I would get 2 new focus trees that should have been in the game from the start, given the prominence in WWII of China and the context of the Chinese Civil War and Sino-Japanese War, 2 more trees changing Germany and Japan for 'sandboxing' purposes, adding in a clumsy attempt to turn a chain of command into something 'active' - given that the whole trait system passing down through the OOB was a thing in HOI3, its non existence in HOI4 makes this a pretty disgraceful labelling as a 'new feature', importing missions etc from CK2/EUIV when, again, we already had decisions in HOI3... I could go on.
 
Feeling a bit tired of EU IV and owning HOI 4 and Stellaris, but having none of the DLCs, i was browsing the foruns trying to perceive if it would be worth it to invest both, my time and my money, on these titles.

Sadly, I continuously come across threads and reviews complaining about poor AI and DLCs that broke previously released DLCs. This is frequently mentioned in Stellaris 2.x threads: "The AI still can't handle the 2.0 modifications".

Now, HOI 4 was released almost 2 years ago, I played for about 100 hours and in my latest game, conquered Spain as Portugal without firing a single shot. Thinking that was a bit silly for a WW2 Grand Strategy, I put it aside.

It is a bit disheartening to come to the conclusion, that after 3 DLCs and 2 more years of development, the game remains broken on so many levels. Namely, the AI.

In the case of EU 4, "money" is the current big problem for the AI.

In fact it seems that "poor AI implementation" is the current common denominator in every Paradox game.

But is it poor AI implementation?

My understanding, from a gamer point of view, is that these are fairly complex games, with intricate decision trees and a miriad of variables that the AI has to take into account, so by no means am I trying to undervalue the work of the developers.

What it seems to me, is that this current trend of "software as a service" is driving the gaming industry to continuously and purposely deliver "unfinished" products. Products that remain in active development for many years after release.

But making new content for EU IV is not the same as making an expansion for Dark Souls, as each new feature may have , and actually HAS, unforeseen consequences in the way the AI behaves.

Paradox is currently delivering per game/per year, around 50€ worth of DLC and it is not uncommon for these new aditions to break the game in several ways.

Probably 80% of the consumers are ok with this strategy. I am not though, and as a consequence, I restrain myself from buying adicional DLCs (at least at full price).

So I hope that in the future, Paradox delivers Less but Better. And i'm sure they can even charge the same.
It's easier and probably better strategy to support multiplayer than the kind of AI that can be any equivalent. They have made major strides in this regard.