After adding the capitals and changing the city ids to the correct places, and changing the country names (not that that had anything to do with it, really), yes.
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When is Cordoba supposed to start sailing for the Incas? I would prefer that Cordoba would discover the Empire just after Smallpox cuts it down at its real world height...if so, a lot of the Northern provinces of the Empire will convert to Islam after Smallpox kills six out of ten people in the virgin environment...while there is plenty in the grain silos*, there would not be sufficient manpower to hold down rebellious provinces. Ninan Cuyochi sends his half brother Waskhar to conquer the rebels, but just as in the real world he covets the emperor position. He converts to Mutazelite Islam as it spreads through the rebellious provinces in the northern Empire and fights for them on the condition that he rules them-- they accept the proposition, and with the aid of the Cordoban Conquistadores he is able to maintain a Mutazelite Chimor's independence (independence only, as of course there would still be many people loyal to the son of the Sun in Qosqo)...though I would prefer to not have it called Chimor/Chimu if I can help it. Both empires would be stuck for a few decades because of the plagues which would come from the Cordoban interaction with Chimor and the Christian interaction with the Mayans (smallpox was not the only disease to rage across the Americas), though this is optional.
I have this much thought out, and will try to put it all in events tonight.
*For some reason the Incas had grain surpluses virtually every year, and what remained in the grain silos scattered throughout the empire was enough that they could survive almost beyond the end of the world, if the empire remained intact.
I have this much thought out, and will try to put it all in events tonight.
*For some reason the Incas had grain surpluses virtually every year, and what remained in the grain silos scattered throughout the empire was enough that they could survive almost beyond the end of the world, if the empire remained intact.
It would be interresting if the Incas could somewhar be integrated in the chineses storyline. If chinese merchants sail for Peru, they could ally´with the Incas. Then the incas would have a strong ally against Cordoba. The Incas could later on covert to Confucianism.
Interesting idea, I wonder what Ahmad thinks of that. But from what I remember about Interregnum China its probably not gonna happen.
Well, the China idea could work out in many ways. Once they are designed more, there will be one of the Chinas (based around the rich, trading, seafaring south-east, and likely the confucian China) that will get explorers. The ai will direct them to California, but a player might do otherwise. basically, we'd need to write them into the storylines of the nations there when that happens, including the ability to adopt confucianism. However, it isn't really a religion that can transport easily, nor were the Chionese prosetilyzing.
The Cordobans will likely arrive in the Chimu area in the 1520s, the Incan areas in the 1550's 1560s if a player plays them and goes for it. Who knows with the AI!!!. They may never get there ...
As for the Malian connection and the Smallpox issue, how about this for size.
The diseases have arrived earlier than 1419, already devestated the Cacoal, and after a four generations theirs numbers and culture increased and transformed once more, begin to trade over the Andes and with the Maya. They get conquistadors in the1440s. And so, assuming contact is made (it might not be) they bring across the diseases to the Inca regions then, making it a significant part of the storyline there, the collapse of populations and redrawing of the politcal landscape. But also meaning that the European diseases are much less significant in effect for either region.
The Cordobans will likely arrive in the Chimu area in the 1520s, the Incan areas in the 1550's 1560s if a player plays them and goes for it. Who knows with the AI!!!. They may never get there ...
As for the Malian connection and the Smallpox issue, how about this for size.
The diseases have arrived earlier than 1419, already devestated the Cacoal, and after a four generations theirs numbers and culture increased and transformed once more, begin to trade over the Andes and with the Maya. They get conquistadors in the1440s. And so, assuming contact is made (it might not be) they bring across the diseases to the Inca regions then, making it a significant part of the storyline there, the collapse of populations and redrawing of the politcal landscape. But also meaning that the European diseases are much less significant in effect for either region.
How much earlier than 1419? Are the americans still reeling when the game begins?
This will change everything I've worked on, but that's okay since I haven't gone too far.
I also have some city names for Mexico, if you get tired of seeing Michihuagan's city being of the same name. But a question is, who is it that makes first contact with the Zapoteca, from Europe?
(Another question is, why are the Zapoteca dominant in the region?)
This will change everything I've worked on, but that's okay since I haven't gone too far.
I also have some city names for Mexico, if you get tired of seeing Michihuagan's city being of the same name. But a question is, who is it that makes first contact with the Zapoteca, from Europe?
(Another question is, why are the Zapoteca dominant in the region?)
orimazd said:
The history descriptions for Aztec and Zapotec do cover that, maybe try reading them.
Well, what is your preferred storyline for the cacoal and the Malian and the arrival of diseases. If you have it too close to game start (or after game start) then realism requires the populations to start very very low, maximum of 1000 per province, and oinly because that's the minimum we can give them. If you have it occurring in the 1370s, then the populations will have rebound.
It's normally going to be Brittany that would make first contact, but the ai is weird and Brittany might get knocked out altogether. Could be Genoa or Cordoba. Why?
Matty
yourworstnightm said:
Confucianism was more of a philosophy than a faith (though in the far east they are basically the same thing) and unlike Christianity or Islam - lack cut clear tenents. I mean really, do you see the natives embracing Chinese folklore?Confucism could perhaps represent 'Imperial Influence' for China in the sense that these regions emnbraced Chinese administration?I never took that big red blob seriously, and it just seems wrong to me....not that Im advocating it's destruction, but Confucism dosent strike me as 'right'
No, I don't see the incas adept chinese folklores or gods. as you said confucianism is a philosophy. They will adopt the chinese way of thinking, and by that "convert to confucianism".
yourworstnightm said:
I suppose your right.
Ormizad - what a persian name! - Dont forget to add possible events to solidify ' local faith ' if the player refuses foriegn faiths he can become Hindu!
MattyG said:The history descriptions for Aztec and Zapotec do cover that, maybe try reading them.
I have been pwned, with a baseball bat. *hangs head in shame*
Calipah said:I suppose your right.
Ormizad - what a persian name! - Dont forget to add possible events to solidify ' local faith ' if the player refuses foriegn faiths he can become Hindu!
Of course! However, because of Smallpox hitting far earlier, I think I will turn the place into several large states, with a few in submission to the Kingdom of Qosqo.
And, amusingly enough, I have no persian blood in me at all. I picked the name for my AIM back when I was an arrogant college freshman, and as no one has used the name for much else (as the correct spelling is Ormazd/Ahura Mazda) I have stuck with it.
I have something to say about my university's collection of books on the incas.
Holy shit.
They have about fifteen books, including the royal commentaries (translated, of course, into English) recorded by the spanish while they were completing the conquest of the incans--two massive dictionary-sized books which are afaik translations from the Quipu cords that the incas recorded their stuff with. Unfortunately, because it is from Quipus, it will most likely be boring, as they hadn't evolved their writing well enough to do more than administrative records. Though from the little peek I took inside it looks to be in a story form rather than dry historical form.
Yes, I was bored (you have to be to do such a thing); most of my friends are in classes right now. Because I have such a vast pool of resources, Tawantinsuyu will be far more accurate than it otherwise would have been.
There is also a book entitled Chan-Chan, which was the capital city of the Chimu for those of you who do not know (which was probably everyone), and it looks to be about 200 or so pages long. What my uni lacks in philosophy books it more than makes up for in anthropology.
Holy shit.
They have about fifteen books, including the royal commentaries (translated, of course, into English) recorded by the spanish while they were completing the conquest of the incans--two massive dictionary-sized books which are afaik translations from the Quipu cords that the incas recorded their stuff with. Unfortunately, because it is from Quipus, it will most likely be boring, as they hadn't evolved their writing well enough to do more than administrative records. Though from the little peek I took inside it looks to be in a story form rather than dry historical form.
Yes, I was bored (you have to be to do such a thing); most of my friends are in classes right now. Because I have such a vast pool of resources, Tawantinsuyu will be far more accurate than it otherwise would have been.
There is also a book entitled Chan-Chan, which was the capital city of the Chimu for those of you who do not know (which was probably everyone), and it looks to be about 200 or so pages long. What my uni lacks in philosophy books it more than makes up for in anthropology.
orimazd said:
OK, so I rename the Chimor capital to Chan-chan, yes?
I am very excited about the research you will be doing and how it will inform Interregnum. Keep your fires burning and start writing down ideas for us to read and be excited by.
I will ne needing monarch lists from you ASAP for each of those new eight nations, even if they are completely fabricated by you (most of them will have to be!).
Matty
I think that the Ben Zaa empire needs to be seen as different from the European model of province ownership.
They have fought and conquered the Maya and the Azteca and others and their empire is an amalgam of owned-and-controlled cities and valley's, and semi-independent client cities.
I chose to not use the state-and-vassal system the game, as they would all be annexed PDQ anyway.
There are lots of ZAP events which create unrest and revolts to represent the looseness of such a kingdom and their Centralization is relly, really low.
But its tough to model this part of the world with the tools we have.
I was thinking that we ought to use the same permanent revoltrisk system used for West Africa for either or both of the Mexia regions and the Andean region.
Thoughts?
They have fought and conquered the Maya and the Azteca and others and their empire is an amalgam of owned-and-controlled cities and valley's, and semi-independent client cities.
I chose to not use the state-and-vassal system the game, as they would all be annexed PDQ anyway.
There are lots of ZAP events which create unrest and revolts to represent the looseness of such a kingdom and their Centralization is relly, really low.
But its tough to model this part of the world with the tools we have.
I was thinking that we ought to use the same permanent revoltrisk system used for West Africa for either or both of the Mexia regions and the Andean region.
Thoughts?
It could work, yes. I don't like the idea (its not because it wouldn't work, and not because it might not be accurate...I just don't like the idea), however. The permanent revolt risk would definitely be inappropriate for the Andes, however. If only the map region from WATK3 could be transplanted to the area, it would be so much better*. Also, because of the threat of being sacrificed to Huitzilopochtli (a foreign god to basically all but the Mexica, and even then he was a relative newcomer to the top of their pantheon), groups were less likely to revolt against their Tenochtitlatl lords unless they were a good distance away--say, the distance between Tenochtitlan and the capital of the Ben Zaa, Tecuantepec. When Tenochtitlan did conquer Tecuantepec, they left a small garrison there and demanded certain goods as tribute...soon after the warriors of the triple alliance left zapotec territory, the garrison was slaughtered and the tribute was never delivered to Tenochtitlan...this happened I believe under the reign of Motecuzoma I, and neither Ahuitzotl or Axayacatl, or the other uey-tlatoani who came before axayacatl whose name I do not remember off the top of my head did anything about it--they knew they could not control territory that far away. It should not be so much an increased revolt risk as an utter impossibility to control territory that far away. the Purempecha (aka the Tarascans) in Michoagan (Michihuacan, technically, or in the new spelling you want Michiwakan) should be independent of the ben zaa as well and able to beat the zapoteca in any war, as their weapons were far, far superior to any which were used by the mexica or the zapoteca, or the various mayan cities--they were made of friggin copper, which could own any obsidian-and-wood maquahuitl (makwawitl or maquawitl now...I'd suggest the latter, if it is used in any events). However, the Purempecha were not warlike at all and only sought to defend their lands from invasion. The secret to making their copper weapons was never given to any other lands, which even then could not not make them as they couldn't figure out how to make the fires burn hot enough to purify the metal.
Same with the Texcalans (aka the tlaxcalans), I would think they would be independent of the Zapoteca--if the Mexica couldn't conquer them even after imposing some extremely nasty tribute and regulations on them, I couldn't imagine the ben zaa doing the same either. Even if they accomplished the feat, they would not be able to hold onto the land for very long, as it was, like Tenochtitlan and Tzintzitzin (the name of the main Purempechan city, IIRC), too far away for them to keep effective control of the territory. I have nothing to tell you about zapotec control of the mayan cities, however, as I know nothing about the mayans and have little interest, oddly enough, in changing that.
*though it unfortunately does not have anything about the various nahua city-states around lake Texcoco--there were a lot, and they all had their own Huey-Tlatoani, and the Mexica didn't claim direct sovereignty over all the others until Motecazoma II clamed to be Cem-Anahuac Huey-Tlatoani (Revered Speaker of the One World)--they were all just tributary states. The city of Texcoco was actually the cultural center of the Nahua lands, and its language was regarded by all as the purest form of Nahuatl.
Same with the Texcalans (aka the tlaxcalans), I would think they would be independent of the Zapoteca--if the Mexica couldn't conquer them even after imposing some extremely nasty tribute and regulations on them, I couldn't imagine the ben zaa doing the same either. Even if they accomplished the feat, they would not be able to hold onto the land for very long, as it was, like Tenochtitlan and Tzintzitzin (the name of the main Purempechan city, IIRC), too far away for them to keep effective control of the territory. I have nothing to tell you about zapotec control of the mayan cities, however, as I know nothing about the mayans and have little interest, oddly enough, in changing that.
*though it unfortunately does not have anything about the various nahua city-states around lake Texcoco--there were a lot, and they all had their own Huey-Tlatoani, and the Mexica didn't claim direct sovereignty over all the others until Motecazoma II clamed to be Cem-Anahuac Huey-Tlatoani (Revered Speaker of the One World)--they were all just tributary states. The city of Texcoco was actually the cultural center of the Nahua lands, and its language was regarded by all as the purest form of Nahuatl.
From a pure gameplay perspective, I really like the new Andean setup, and it'll actually be quite interesting for the player to start with one of these states, even before Europeans turn up. However it develops though, there should be several reasonable outcomes, and the formation of an Inca Empire needn't be the most likely.
As for spellings, a 'ke' sound is rendered 'que' in Spanish and 'che' in Italian. But as this is an English-speaking game, we should probably stick to English renderings of names for things in the Americas for the most part, so people have some idea how they'd sound. For example the 'x' in many names actually refers to a 'sh' sound, because that's how x was pronounced in 16th-century Spanish, but as neither English nor modern Spanish generally associates x with a 'sh' sound, it's a bit confusing for modern readers.
As for spellings, a 'ke' sound is rendered 'que' in Spanish and 'che' in Italian. But as this is an English-speaking game, we should probably stick to English renderings of names for things in the Americas for the most part, so people have some idea how they'd sound. For example the 'x' in many names actually refers to a 'sh' sound, because that's how x was pronounced in 16th-century Spanish, but as neither English nor modern Spanish generally associates x with a 'sh' sound, it's a bit confusing for modern readers.
There is no x used in Quechua (Runa Sumi, I believe, is the native name for the language), so that isn't a problem here. For the Andes I prefer the new orthography used for the language, look it up on Wikipedia. It looks like Arabic transliterations to the unknowledgeable eye because of all the qs without the u and all the ws in addition to the ks. For Mesoamerica I actually prefer the x for sh, just for its coolness points. Nahuatl looks like a very exotic language, especially with that x (and the tl, but that can't be transliterated any other way); anything else would just look ugly. Using w instead of (vowel)hu(vowel) might also add coolness points...like Arawak instead of Arahuac for the culture inhabiting the carribbean islands (not related to the Aztecs, but a good example). Another example would be the primary weapon of pre-columbian mexico (which I have mentioned before), the Maquahuitl, which in our orthography would be maquawitl (because makwawitl looks ugly to me). Of course, its not just up to me.Incompetent said:
About the Maquahuitl, it could slice through spanish armor just as well as it could tear through cotton armor (it couldn't jab; they should have thought of tipping the end with obsidian as well), though spanish swords were still superior. No, this is not why they conquered Mexico, so don't even think that.