Pirate Republic Government form

[Canute VII]

{New and updated content, old suggestion to be found further down the thread}

Maybe the Name of this Government type can be modified, depending on in which super-region its capital is: e.g. "Pirate Republic" for the Americas, "Wokou Federation" for China/the Far East, "Orang laut" for the East Indies, ...

Government modifiers for "Pirate Federations"
▪+10% naval moral
▪+10% capture ship chance (or -10% naval maintenance)
▪may raid coasts
(Optional: a migration mechanic similar to native councils would be cool, since it would fit wokou/orang laut)

The rise and fall of these Federations will ride on how well they are able to win over the buccaneers and seamen of the region who are fickle to the successes and failures of the Federation. By winning (naval) battles and trade wars, a Pirate Federation is able to increase their Naval Allegiance which will in turn grant stronger bonuses for the country. Conversely, losing battles and trade wars is a fast track to losing their support and bonuses.

Naval Allegiance itself will grant no bonuses at zero, but up to +33% privateering efficiency and +10% sailor recovery speed as it grows. It will degrade over time relative to your development (degrades at a higher rate than for tribal federations, though). Additionally, it can be spent to gain immediate assistance, with each action costing 30 Allegiance. :

• Enlist dissatisfied/deserted officers: Gain Admiral with 40 Tradition
• Enforce pirate code: Get +15% light ship Combat Ability for 10 years.
• Capture merchant vessels: Start production of 6 light ships in the capital at 25% build time.

As the "may raid coasts" ability this government type grants can only be used agaist other religions, the pirates of the carribean - should they arise - may struggle to find applicable targets (elsewhere in the world pirates will likely have an easier time). Thus they could have a decision to adopt a "secular" state religion (e.g. "atheist") which would be a new and separate religious group (without any new mechanics, though). Having adopted this new state religion, a carribean pirate republic then could raid coast on everyone else in the carribean - for the cost of being alone in its group and having no religious mechanics.

 

[Canute VII]

O.k., here's another trial with a simpler, tuned-down representation. I also kicked the negative modifiers, because - as we have sufficienty established - pirates are cool...

It should be relatively straightforward to implement, since it borrows from the tribal federation government type.

Maybe the Name of this Government type can be modified, depending on in which super-region its capital is: e.g. "Pirate Republic" for the Americas, "Wokou Federation" for China/the Far East, "Orang laut" for the East Indies, ...

Government modifiers for "Pirate Federations"
▪+10% naval moral
▪+10% capture ship chance
▪may raid coasts
(Optional: a migration mechanic similar to native councils would be cool, since it would fit wokou/orang laut)

The rise and fall of these Federations will ride on how well they are able to win over the buccaneers and seamen of the region who are fickle to the successes and failures of the Federation. By winning (naval) battles and trade wars, a Pirate Federation is able to increase their Naval Allegiance which will in turn grant stronger bonuses for the country. Conversely, losing battles and trade wars is a fast track to losing their support and bonuses.

Naval Allegiance itself will grant no bonuses at zero, but up to +33% privateering efficiency and +10% sailor recovery speed as it grows. It will degrade over time relative to your development (degrades at a higher rate than for tribal federations, though). Additionally, it can be spent to gain immediate assistance, with each action costing 30 Allegiance. :

• Enlist dissatisfied/deserted officers: Gain Admiral with 40 Tradition
• Enforce pirate code: Get +15% light ship Combat Ability for 10 years.
• Capture merchant vessels: Start production of 6 light ships in the capital at 25% build time.

So that's really it, no more shenanigans!

 

[Canute VII]

Copying the new stuff over to the first thread entry, the old suggestion can be found here for reference:

Spoiler: Old suggestion

pirate republic goverment
modifiers
▪fixed duchy rank
▪-1 diplomatic reputation
▪+5% all power cost
▪-0.2 war exhaustion
▪ruler can be made an admiral, will always have at least +2 admiral maneuver
▪-50 absolutism
▪-1 missionaries
▪can migrate (similar to native councils) but over up to two sea zones
▪can only have one province (the capital province) without loosing the migration ability

▪can create sister republics (similar to create trading cities)
provinces can be released as an independent pirate republic
per trade node up to 5 pirate republics can exist

▪can create a pirate confederation (similar to trade league or tribal confederation)
leader of confederation is determined by highest captain authority = crew unity + prestige
every member in the confederation will receive +1% privateer efficiency, +1% trade steering, 0.5 discipline (per member)
the leader will receive: +2 naval force limit (per member)
members will be called into defensive wars if liberty desire is <50%
if captain authority of the leader drops beneath 0, the confederation will be dissolved
if a member has higher captain authority than the leader, it can declare a "pirate feud"
members have +10% liberty desire

▪uses "crew unity":
scaling bonuses
at 100%: 10% naval morale, +10% capture ship chance, -2 naval tradition decay
at 50%: 0% naval morale, 0% capture ship chance, 0 naval tradition decay
at 0%: -10% naval morale, -10% capture ship chance, +2 naval tradition decay

crew unity can be gained and lost as follows
▪base -2 per year
▪-0.1 per 2 development owned
▪-2 per year if ruler is not an admiral and not assigned to a fleet
▪-10 if ruler is not reelected or ruler dies (i.e. this is somewhat contrary to normal republics; reelecting will not decrease crew unity!)
▪capturing ships: +2 captain authority per captured enemy ship, -2 per captured own ship
▪sinking ships: +1 per sunk enemy ship, -1 per sunk own ship
▪looting provinces: +1 per 4 ducats looted
▪privateering: +1 per 4 ducats privateered
can "strengthen government"

has factions
▪the smugglers (diplomatic)
gives +10% global trade power, +1 merchant, -10% production efficiency
▪the fishermen (administrative)
gives +1 yearly naval tradition, −10% naval maintenance modifier, -10% available sailors
▪the raiders (military)
gives +15% privateering efficiency, may raid coasts, -10% institution spread

missions
A1 aim: create a pirate confederation, reward: +10% sailors recovery speed for 20 years
A2 aim: secure fleet basing rights with another nation, reward: +33% naval force limit for 50 years (pirate havens)
A3 aim: raid coast re a center of trade, reward: +10% trade steering for 15 years (multinational crews)
A4 aim: own a province with at least 10 development, reward: +3 tolerance of the true faith for 30 years (A new society)

B1 aim: have at least 10 light ships, reward: +5% recover navy moral speed for 10 years
B2 aim: earn 10 ducats through "spoils of war", reward: +15% light ship combat ability for 25 years (former marine officers)
B3 aim: build 5 heavy ships, reward: +10% heavy ship combat ability for 15 years (masters of the seas)

pirate republic religion

• agnostic/atheist (new religious group): will use a tengri-like religious mechanic
• gives -3 tolerance of true faith, +3 tolerance of heathens (that is tolerance should be 0 then for all religions)
• gives -10% adopt institution cost, +10% available sailors
• can accept another religion giving (other) bonuses like with tengri
• no "defender of faith"

formation (should be easy to do for a player yearning for the experience)
▪by event, I think I have discussed this in my other thread "pirates as a provincial modifier in uncolonized provinces".
▪by decision, gives -3 stability ; this would be available if

• country has only 1 province, naval force limit is filled with only light ships and all light ships are privateering, and
• either of
  • ruler trait in {gruel, sinner, naive enthusiast, embezzler, greedy} and no positive traits;
  • has declared bankruptcy

dissolution (the player should have an easy way out, if s/he wishes so), these are merely some ideas:

1. Can turn into a merchant republic by decision if all national ideas are filled, crew unity is 100% and stability is 3
2. Maybe with dharma dlc there will be other ways to model this??? Looking at it straight, the "pirate republic", even if it bears the word republic in it's name, would be well placed in the tree for "tribal goverment reforms"...
3. It would be cool, though, if this could also be linked to factions:

• if fishermen faction has 100 influence and the others below 50 (?), then there's a decision to turn into a peasant republic.
• if smugglers have 100 influence and other factions below 50 (?), then there's a decision to turn into a merchant republic

miscellaneous
Casus belli
▪"plunder"
all pirate republics have automatic casus belli against all non pirate republics
peace deal does not allow taking provinces, revoke cores, vassalization etc. (similar to "trade conflict")
but if lost, then the enemy can take the pirate province
▪"Wiping of piracy"
all non pirate republics get an automatic cb againt pirate republics
allows conquest of province only
▪"Pirate feud"
pirate republics vs. pirate republics
peace deal allows everything (but no vassalization), including making them a member of one's pirate federation or taking over as leader

 

[Canute VII]

Just stumbled upon this and thought I'd leave it here: A certain chinese pirate called Limahong trying to set up a kingdom in the Philippines...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limahong

Limahong seems to have also crossed swords with another chinese pirate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lin_Daoqian

 

[DanubianCossak]

Wasnt the peak of age of piracy something like 30 years?

I mean what exactly would you expect? To play a country that would be at war with basically every colonial power? Holding what? A couple of provinces?

This would require such massive new game mechanics and what not in order to just make it playable, it might as well be a game of its own.

In EU4 these 30 years would pass in 20 minutes.

 

[Canute VII]

Wasnt the peak of age of piracy something like 30 years?

I mean what exactly would you expect? To play a country that would be at war with basically every colonial power? Holding what? A couple of provinces?

This would require such massive new game mechanics and what not in order to just make it playable, it might as well be a game of its own.

In EU4 these 30 years would pass in 20 minutes.

According to your logic, I wonder why anyone would play Byzantium, then....

 

[DanubianCossak]

According to your logic, I wonder why anyone would play Byzantium, then....

Byzantium is a normal country that doesnt require any special mechanics.

Playing a pirate country would require new mechanics and AI changes at the very least because whats to stop Spain or France from sending a 20k stack to your only province and wiping you out in 2 years, if you played the same game as everyone else.

This is one of those examples where people just want something without actually giving it a second of thinking as to what they want exactly.

 

[cub298]

I mean, I still want it. But there would have to be some diplomatic immunity to pirates if they own just one province. If they end up expanding then they could have their land conquered. My take on it and I haven't read much of the posting.

 

[Canute VII]

Byzantium is a normal country that doesnt require any special mechanics.

Playing a pirate country would require new mechanics and AI changes at the very least because whats to stop Spain or France from sending a 20k stack to your only province and wiping you out in 2 years, if you played the same game as everyone else.

This is one of those examples where people just want something without actually giving it a second of thinking as to what they want exactly.

And no, Byz got its own mini DLC with special content and is usually dead within 2 years of game start. Why should a pirate nation not be able to survive much longer than that? And again, we are not speaking about a single pirate nation but judging from history about multiple instances of one forming in different regions of the world at various times. Even if you think you would not want to play such a country, then playing along or àgainst them as e.g. Spain or Ming would certainly spice things up in a way that e.g. land-based rebels or other tags couldn't deliver.

And: I know very well what I want, thank you. E.g. I don't want to be put into drawers by danubian cossacks.

 

[Canute VII]

I mean, I still want it. But there would have to be some diplomatic immunity to pirates if they own just one province. If they end up expanding then they could have their land conquered. My take on it and I haven't read much of the posting.

Yes, I could think of a mechanic, where e.g. pirates get minus diplomatic reputation the more provinces or development they own.

But getting "diplomatic immunity" doesn't make much sense, I mean why would they get diplomatic immunity when no other country gets this? Of course, if they have an eastern religion, they could have access to being and having tributaries, which could give them some protection or muscle. For carribean pirates I wouldn't see this though, at least not without making an exception to current game rules.

And then also keep in mind that the suggested goverment mechanically is basically just a copy of a tribal federation with different modifiers, cause groogy said it would have to be rather easy to implement to be considered at all.

 

[DanubianCossak]

And no, Byz got its own mini DLC with special content and is usually dead within 2 years of game start. Why should a pirate nation not be able to survive much longer than that? And again, we are not speaking about a single pirate nation but judging from history about multiple instances of one forming in different regions of the world at various times. Even if you think you would not want to play such a country, then playing along or àgainst them as e.g. Spain or Ming would certainly spice things up in a way that e.g. land-based rebels or other tags couldn't deliver.

And: I know very well what I want, thank you. E.g. I don't want to be put into drawers by danubian cossacks.

Byzantium is a normal country that doesnt require any special mechanics. Just content (event, decisions, scripted stuff thats easy to produce).

Pirate nation would be a country that would be wiped out immediately if it popped up on the map, IF it played by the normal rules. What is to stop someone from sending 20k troops, invading your only province and annexing you?

So to make it playable it would have to play by different rules.

Which means new mechanics and new gameplay, tweaks to AI and entire new parts of the AI. Thats 100s-1000+ of workhours to produce, whereas the entire Byzantium DLC is perhaps 20.

If you fail to see how this is different to Byzantium, then you have bigger problems than coassacks putting you in drawers my good sir.

 

[DanubianCossak]

I mean, I still want it. But there would have to be some diplomatic immunity to pirates if they own just one province. If they end up expanding then they could have their land conquered. My take on it and I haven't read much of the posting.

Yeah thats not how you design something.

You have to come up with entire gameplay for a pirate nation, from their point of view, and the same thing from everyone else point of view.

So for example would the pirate nation have land armies? Where would the manpower for these armies come from? Where would the economy that supports these armies come from? What would be the limiting factors as to how large it was?

And then lets talk about piracy. How would your navies function? If you only had one province, or a very few provinces how would you recruit a new navy in case your main fleet was wiped? It would take you years and years to build dozens of ships in a single province. How would your economy work? How would you pay for your navies? Where would the sailors come from? How exactly would piracy work?

And then lastly how would piracy work from colonizers point of view. The money cant come out of nowhere. So it has to come from tarrifs. Meaning you need to interact with trade routes. So do you remove trade income from the trade flow? What would be the limiting factors? What kind of strategic options would colonial powers have to resist you? What is to stop them from sending 100s of ships to your region and collectively wiping you out (in other words unite against you to wipe you out)? What happens if there is very little colonization? What happens if/once the colonies revolt against colonizers and trade flow stops going to Europe in massive amounts, is it game over for the pirates or what?

See its not that simple.

 

[cub298]

Yeah thats not how you design something.

You have to come up with entire gameplay for a pirate nation, from their point of view, and the same thing from everyone else point of view.

So for example would the pirate nation have land armies? Where would the manpower for these armies come from? Where would the economy that supports these armies come from? What would be the limiting factors as to how large it was?

And then lets talk about piracy. How would your navies function? If you only had one province, or a very few provinces how would you recruit a new navy in case your main fleet was wiped? It would take you years and years to build dozens of ships in a single province. How would your economy work? How would you pay for your navies? Where would the sailors come from? How exactly would piracy work?

And then lastly how would piracy work from colonizers point of view. The money cant come out of nowhere. So it has to come from tarrifs. Meaning you need to interact with trade routes. So do you remove trade income from the trade flow? What would be the limiting factors? What kind of strategic options would colonial powers have to resist you? What is to stop them from sending 100s of ships to your region and collectively wiping you out (in other words unite against you to wipe you out)? What happens if there is very little colonization? What happens if/once the colonies revolt against colonizers and trade flow stops going to Europe in massive amounts, is it game over for the pirates or what?

See its not that simple.

I agree and it is not that simple. I was just coming up with a quick solution.

I figure that they would have to be something that ends up getting spawned by a nearby colony or a nation privateer a node way too much that some of these people break off to form their own band of pirates. Like said before, having diplomatic immunity is just a little too much, but to have modifiers for it would be excellent. The more provinces you control the slower you loot and worse off modifiers are to the army and fleet according to quality.

For money issues, you could end up putting it in ideas/special province modifiers for the pirate capital. It would end up giving it some free income along with having insane build times. It would also level up the capital giving you more development and income as you end up looting more and more of the region near by. I would think that either you would always be at war, or only at war when other nations had enough with you. It would be more like you would always be able to loot, similar to ck2 and Vikings.

For Army, I would feel that they could only hire merchs, but at normal maintenance. And for the ships, maybe the province could have the ship building automatically built along with having a modifier to more sailor generation.


Well this a lot better for you, I hope.

 

[Canute VII]

Byzantium is a normal country that doesnt require any special mechanics. Just content (event, decisions, scripted stuff thats easy to produce).

Copying tribal federation and giving it different modifiers would be easy as well in my book. Then add some events etc. Put together with a general map update to add more islands all over the world. Et voila, it's already an Immersion Pack.

Pirate nation would be a country that would be wiped out immediately if it popped up on the map, IF it played by the normal rules. What is to stop someone from sending 20k troops, invading your only province and annexing you?

Nothing, but the pirate government mechanics. Besides that, you can say that about virtually every OPM in the game, which didn' stop pdx to add OPMs.

So to make it playable it would have to play by different rules.

No, hot at all. But of course that would be the icing on the cake.

Which means new mechanics and new gameplay, tweaks to AI and entire new parts of the AI. Thats 100s-1000+ of workhours to produce, whereas the entire Byzantium DLC is perhaps 20.

If you fail to see how this is different to Byzantium, then you have bigger problems than coassacks putting you in drawers my good sir.

I wonder how many hours they needed to design north american tribes (which will be wiped from the map as well).

Where you see nothing, I see a lot of potential. Besides that, I firmly believe we are free to make suggestions and tell pdx what we would like to see in the game. I wonder why you are so damn negative?

 

[Canute VII]

Yeah thats not how you design something.

You have to come up with entire gameplay for a pirate nation, from their point of view, and the same thing from everyone else point of view.

So for example would the pirate nation have land armies? Where would the manpower for these armies come from? Where would the economy that supports these armies come from? What would be the limiting factors as to how large it was?

And then lets talk about piracy. How would your navies function? If you only had one province, or a very few provinces how would you recruit a new navy in case your main fleet was wiped? It would take you years and years to build dozens of ships in a single province. How would your economy work? How would you pay for your navies? Where would the sailors come from? How exactly would piracy work?

And then lastly how would piracy work from colonizers point of view. The money cant come out of nowhere. So it has to come from tarrifs. Meaning you need to interact with trade routes. So do you remove trade income from the trade flow? What would be the limiting factors? What kind of strategic options would colonial powers have to resist you? What is to stop them from sending 100s of ships to your region and collectively wiping you out (in other words unite against you to wipe you out)? What happens if there is very little colonization? What happens if/once the colonies revolt against colonizers and trade flow stops going to Europe in massive amounts, is it game over for the pirates or what?

See its not that simple.

That's all legitimate questions. But it's the job of the developers and game designers to draw up a design concept. And drawing a design concept goes well beyond the intended scope of this suggestion forum.

 

[cub298]

That's all legitimate questions. But it's the job of the developers and game designers to draw up a design concept. And drawing a design concept goes well beyond the intended scope of this suggestion forum.

I mean, it is partially allowed for us to come up with game design concepts, doesn't mean it will get into the game though.

 

[Canute VII]

I mean, it is partially allowed for us to come up with game design concepts, doesn't mean it will get into the game though.

I think you misread what I was saying. I wanted to say, that a "suggestion" as posted on this forum does not need to answer all those questions that danubiancossack brought to the table (and how could it possibly?). Writing a thoroughly balanced design concept, best together with creating a prototype, would be a lot of work for the average layman and as far as I am concerned I don't receive my wage from a swedish account. The suggestion that I posted "emerged" when I was lieing at the beach in southern France - what level of detail would you expect?

 

[withche.07]

These are my suggestions for possible mediterrenean pirate states:

Actually similar "trading city" suggestion may work out well.

I can reimagine it as Corsair state: (will be republic with elections)
-One-province-minor out of your provinces (Fixed to northern africa coastal provinces).
-Unique to Ottoman government or possibly Maghrebi culture states:
-It will be independent under its own tag as "corsair state", not as vassal
-But becomes a part of potential corsair league (limited in number possibly maximum 2)
-AI Corsair state won't expand
-It will be under whole new league with their ruler (similar to trade leagues)
-Factions may be different (Moor immigrants etc)
-It will have unique modifers

Possible modifiers (4 can be chosen from this list):
(Mostly naval modifiers)

galley_cost & or galley_power
capture_ship_chance
naval_morale
leader_naval_manuever & or leader_naval_fire & or leader_naval_shock
blockade_efficiency
global_sailors & or sailors_recovery_speed
global_naval_engagement_modifier

may_perform_slave_raid (unique one)

Maybe even unique modiers about coastal raid buffs etc.

Republic of Sale to be included as unique one to create as it may get unique events.

@Groogy
I can understand you consider its too narrow to be designed in game but these historical figures (like Jan Janszoon or Barbarossa) and country (Republic of Salé in Morocco) deserves some love.
I ve done some historical research here and its very interesting, especially libertarian behaviour of Salé:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...able-barbary-pirate-state-possibility.1083790

Eu4 even has Barbarossa as loading screen pic, man!

Quotes:

After 1627 Salé became the home of the republic of Bou Regreg and the base for the Barbary pirates (or corsairs) known in the West as the “Sallee Rovers.”
https://www.britannica.com/place/Sale-Morocco

After 1609 the unified community of Rabat-Salé became the home of large numbers of Andalusian Moors who had been driven from Spain and, later, of the so-called Sallee Rovers, the most dreaded of the Barbary pirates (also known as corsairs).
https://www.britannica.com/place/Rabat

With the arrival of powerful Moorish bands in Rabat and Tétouan (1609), Morocco became a new centre for the pirates ..
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Barbary-pirate

 

[cub298]

Eu4 even has Barbarossa as loading screen pic, man!

Don't say that for you are setting the bar too low. If that is the only thing we get and not full pirates, well I will be disappointed. That and this has been thrown out as an idea of the past as well.

 

[withche.07]

Don't say that for you are setting the bar too low. If that is the only thing we get and not full pirates, well I will be disappointed. That and this has been thrown out as an idea of the past as well.

No no, as you can read my thread and post I actually wanna see playable pirate republics with corsair government type. I just suggested to look into existing pirate states and pirate personalities in history first, to design so it may give ideas on how it can work for player or ai.

My suggestion is designing option to establish half autonomous pirate nations on northern africa coastal provinces(opms),
BUT not as vassals... as semi-independent corsair members of overlord's pirate league (Ottomans for example) (limited to 2-3 for each nation)

It can be part of Ottomans national tree to establish one pirate state in Tunis so we can always see it happening every game just like real.

I somewhat suggested modifiers to add into pirate national ideas, mostly about galleys, naval morale, ship stealing, admiral skills, blockade, sailors and dynamic raids.

So finally I suggested to look into historical Republic of Salé to be added in Morocco. It should be formable/releasable unique state with special ideas, rulers, events.