Planet development is broken (v4)

[Enero]

Districts:
- The new district system is inflexible. You are limited to only 2 "specializations" maximum.
- The buildings have become even more a jack of all trades. They give jobs, they adjust productivity, they do everything. Why the need for "specializations" at all? Buildings in theory can do what "specializations" do and more.

The concept of unemployment doesn't work. The straturn degression is not meaningful and important enough. New pops could easily be born as Civilians.

Amenities do not work as intended. The production numbers are ridicilous.

Trade is no brainer to get as well.

Unity from factions is so abundant that you can forget about it.

Rare Resources are not rare anymore and are produced alongside Alloys and Consumer Goods in plentitude.

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Production is on steroids, there is really nothing to care about, there are no tradeoffs. Everything is abundant.

Basically, planet development is simplified and the only thing to care about is housing. And if you are overpopulated the population will soon stop growing.

There are only 2 different meaningful development directions remained that compete with each other for City Districts:
- Research.
- Industry (Consumer Goods, Alloys, Rare Resources).

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The new system doesn't work well for Ecumenopolises. It feels superficial and cheesy.

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In my opinion, a better solution would be to have different district types to provide jobs (Mining, Commerce, Research, Artisan and so on district types). Districts should be added via the [+] button, so only existing districts are shown in the UI. It will be flexible, logical and provide a better framework for meaningful choices.

Buildings should exist separately from districts to provide special effects.

 

[Nakkivene]

A bit of a comment on rares : the production numbers are ludicrous while upkeep hasn't changed. You'll just immediately shoot to massive overproduction once you've built refineries on an industrial world.

My opinion is that there should be two ways to produce rares : resource-efficient but building slot inefficient and the reverse. Like basic resource district buildings that don't produce too much but cost little to use (the old style crystalline mines etc) and the refineries (can be like they are but either the cost should be higher or production lesser, or both).

Though perhaps the intent was that these resources should be rather trivial once you unlock the tech?

 

[Enero]

A bit of a comment on rares : the production numbers are ludicrous while upkeep hasn't changed. You'll just immediately shoot to massive overproduction once you've built refineries on an industrial world.

My opinion is that there should be two ways to produce rares : resource-efficient but building slot inefficient and the reverse. Like basic resource district buildings that don't produce too much but cost little to use (the old style crystalline mines etc) and the refineries (can be like they are but either the cost should be higher or production lesser, or both).

Though perhaps the intent was that these resources should be rather trivial once you unlock the tech?

The intent clearly was to somehow "adjust" it to the new system.

If we had multiple district type system, we could build specialized districts (to produce rare resources), which will naturally compete for district space with other district types. It is flexible, logical and requires a meaningful choice to be made.

In the new system I don't see a good way to find a place for all these complexities. Rare resources do not make much sense anymore as they are produced alongside Alloys (and CG). So there is no competition for space between industries. And if there is no competition what is the point?

 

[Red Death]

- The new district system is inflexible. You are limited to only 2 "specializations" maximum.

True, and I have complained about it since the beta. Especially the inability to build up the numbers of those two specialisations because they are tied to the same district is extremely annoying.

Though surprisingly, I have heard practically nobody complain about this so far since release. So either it is less of a problem for most people, or the bug problems are overwhelming the discussion.

I would have much preferred if they had just added research and unity districts next to the rest.

- The buildings have become even more a jack of all trades. They give jobs, they adjust productivity, they do everything. Why the need for "specializations" at all? Buildings in theory can do what "specializations" do and more.

I think the concept of specialisations does make sense. The specialisations make big changes to the job output of districts. Buildings make smaller adjustments. Specialisations determine exactly what buildings you can even build in their slots.

I do agree that the simple +200 X jobs go counter to the system and should be removed (or add a few jobs per district instead), apart from the buildings thatprovide jobs you only ever need a few of, such as entertainers or enforcers. That would make the building system more focused.

The concept of unemployment doesn't work. The straturn degression is not meaningful and important enough. New pops could easily be born as Civilians.

Yeah, it's just a pointless distraction now. It's not even particularly harmful, but why does it exist?

Amenities do not work as intended. Civilians are able to cover all your amenity and trade value needs so why bother?

Civilians are usually not exactly the highest productivity jobs. So if you get some actual amenities and trade jobs, you can then put more civilians to work in more productive jobs.

I think this system does make sense.

Unity from factions is so abundant that you can forget about it.

Yes it's a problem, but at least these are just number changes. People actually being encouraged to pay attention to their Factions is nice though!

Rare Resources are not rare anymore and are produced alongside Alloys and Consumer Goods in plentitude.

A bit of a comment on rares : the production numbers are ludicrous while upkeep hasn't changed. You'll just immediately shoot to massive overproduction once you've built refineries on an industrial world.

My opinion is that there should be two ways to produce rares : resource-efficient but building slot inefficient and the reverse. Like basic resource district buildings that don't produce too much but cost little to use (the old style crystalline mines etc) and the refineries (can be like they are but either the cost should be higher or production lesser, or both).

Though perhaps the intent was that these resources should be rather trivial once you unlock the tech?

I don't looking at building slot versus resource slot efficiency is a good idea. The new building system desperately wants tradeoffs between buildings that provide different modifiers, not using building slots as a resource for spammable buildings.

The intent clearly was to somehow "adjust" it to the new system.

If we had multiple district type system, we could build specialized districts (to produce rare resources), which will naturally compete for district space with other district types. It is flexible, logical and requires a meaningful choice to be made.

In the new system I don't see a good way to find a place for all these complexities. Rare resources do not make much sense anymore as they are produced alongside Alloys (and CG). So there is no competion for space between industries. And if there is no competiotion what is the point?

My suggestion:

Significantly decrease the output that the refinery buildings give you. Significantly increase the output you get from miners on planets with the rare resource deposits, and from the buildings those deposits allow you to build on one of your basic resource districts.

Those rare resource deposits have to mean something, otherwise there is no point in having them.

One problem is also that the refinery buildings just add more throughput onto metallurgist/artisan jobs, there is no tradeoff other than whether you want another modifier more.

Refineries could instead be their own specialisation, requiring you to really sacrifice industry space if you don't have rare resources deposits available.

 

[Drullo321]

I think the main problem lies in

a) A bit of trivialisations. In 3.14 and before you also could produce alot (enough) rare ressources when specialise a smaller planet for refinery and similar buildings. However you needed a whole free planet and pop to do so and the numbers were alot lower then now. Now you just slap another building on the planet producing everything.

b) Redundancy (Ancient Refinery isn't anything special anymore as you can just build the 3 different rare ressources buildings. You will have enough slots when you use either factory or artisan specialisation. So you will have easy access to those resources anyway.

c) Numbers are all over the place. I build any of the four buildings mentioned above and easily get 200-300 of those ressources for a meager cost. Previously powerful stuff like the Modularium relic or getting some planetary features are a joke compared to those converter buildings.

Numbers of those buildings easily need to be reduced to 10% of the current amount. Maybe even increase their job cost by 50%.
Rare ressources by other sources like deposits, trade caravan, etc. should be buffed a bit. Other then the toxic god depot, those depots with 1-2 output means nothing compared to the buildings giving you 200-300 with an average CG/Alloy planet.

 

[fourteenfour]

To be honest, I would just rather do away with motes and such and only keep the really special elements that are only found on celestial bodies that cannot be colonized, meaning just keep Zro and such to have a strategic reason to want the system. They have turned mote/etc into such a commodity they have in effect become background noise.

As for colony development, I have very little nice to say so I will not

 

[Enero]

I think the main problem lies in

a) A bit of trivialisations. In 3.14 and before you also could produce alot (enough) rare ressources when specialise a smaller planet for refinery and similar buildings. However you needed a whole free planet and pop to do so and the numbers were alot lower then now. Now you just slap another building on the planet producing everything.

b) Redundancy (Ancient Refinery isn't anything special anymore as you can just build the 3 different rare ressources buildings. You will have enough slots when you use either factory or artisan specialisation. So you will have easy access to those resources anyway.

c) Numbers are all over the place. I build any of the four buildings mentioned above and easily get 200-300 of those ressources for a meager cost. Previously powerful stuff like the Modularium relic or getting some planetary features are a joke compared to those converter buildings.

Numbers of those buildings easily need to be reduced to 10% of the current amount. Maybe even increase their job cost by 50%.
Rare ressources by other sources like deposits, trade caravan, etc. should be buffed a bit. Other then the toxic god depot, those depots with 1-2 output means nothing compared to the buildings giving you 200-300 with an average CG/Alloy planet.

You can't reduce the numbers in a meaningful way as Rare Resources are tied to Industry, you can't produce them separately. That is the real problem. The new system is inflexible.

 

[DiscoRay]

While I wouldn't go so far to say it's "broken", I'd say more back to old problems experienced like in late 2.0 and early 3.0. Once again, colony district/building development in advanced has been dis-incentivised, with the auto allocation of jobs flocking straight to filling all elite/specialists openings, regardless of it throwing your nation's whole economy into basic resource deficit hell. You can only get around this by constant micro-managing, which is just no fun at all.

Even only having native species with the same traits, I constantly have a few elite/specialists unemployed at all times, and every monthly tick my colonies go between fully employed, to having unemployed. As if the system is auto reallocating jobs on the logic the new job holder can/will produce more than the previous pop holding the job did. Which isn't possibly when it's all native species with the same biological traits. That's with having an overall surplus of job roles to fill compared to my pop numbers. The system really needs tweaked to take account for creating deficits, and the length/number of times it's causing situations of creating unemployed pops waiting for the demotion timer.

 

[hart30]

Allowing civilians to amass instead of putting them into real jobs is like saying the old clerk job was where u wanted most of ur pops.
With civilians its like with old clerks - if u have them you are wasting economic potential.

 

[Gilbert95]

My guess is this is just a typo. In 3.14 it cost 10 minerals to make a rare resource (plus a dedicated building). Since this is adding throughput on a scalable job, I think the intent was to make it small-> 0.1 produced. With a 2 mineral upkeep this makes to 20:1. Nothing about the usage or economic value of these resources suggests they wanted them to be 10x as plentiful.

 

[Red Death]

Even only having native species with the same traits, I constantly have a few elite/specialists unemployed at all times, and every monthly tick my colonies go between fully employed, to having unemployed. As if the system is auto reallocating jobs on the logic the new job holder can/will produce more than the previous pop holding the job did. Which isn't possibly when it's all native species with the same biological traits. That's with having an overall surplus of job roles to fill compared to my pop numbers.

Oh, this is something different: each pop group is producing new pops of their own strata. That's where your random unemployed people are coming from.

 

[maxk94]

Unity from factions is so abundant that you can forget about it.

In our MP some of us make A LOT of unity by factions, others just peanuts. It is obviously PDX try to avoid to fix the political system by any cost.

 

[DiscoRay]

Oh, this is something different: each pop group is producing new pops of their own strata. That's where your random unemployed people are coming from.

Thanks, helpful to know that's the case. Though that's not a very good logic system IMO, which effectively assumes a bureaucrat will produce a child that is also destined to become a bureaucrat.

Now, that could actually be an interesting thing for maybe a species with some sort of selective breeding background/trait, but in no way should it be a default logic behaviour. It should be the new pops always produced by the stratas start as a civilian, and can then be shifted upward where they are most needed to be.

 

[Revengeance_oov]

I do agree that the simple +200 X jobs go counter to the system and should be removed

These buildings are the most mineral-efficient way of producing jobs, and in particular are intended to be used for colonies that are too small to specialize. A brand-new colony needs 1000 minerals to add 100 jobs/district, and then another 500 minerals for the districts themselves. The second specialization slot costs another 1000. So, to get the first 200 researchers on a planet, you can either:

• Spend 2500 minerals on two specializations and a district (after 20+ game years), or
• Spend 400 minerals on a lab

Similar story for e.g. alloy production. Your capital needs the ability to produce metallurgists without scaling research/unity/CGs in lockstep. Districts are required to do anything at scale, but buildings are for bootstrapping. Once you have the districts built up, you convert the +job buildings to +efficiency buildings.

One problem is also that the refinery buildings just add more throughput onto metallurgist/artisan jobs, there is no tradeoff other than whether you want another modifier more.

Agree this is an issue, and the fix is to make refineries produce strategic resources at the cost of reduced alloy output. One additional related issue is that the game still values strategics at 10 EC/unit, when their cost of production is now only 2 (or less, with Planetary Designations).

Allowing civilians to amass instead of putting them into real jobs is like saying the old clerk job was where u wanted most of ur pops.
With civilians its like with old clerks - if u have them you are wasting economic potential.

Minmaxing civilians is actually very powerful now, and makes Utopian Abundance finally viable.

In our MP some of us make A LOT of unity by factions, others just peanuts. It is obviously PDX try to avoid to fix the political system by any cost.

It's a function of species rights. Egalitarians (and especially Parliamentary System) dominate Unity production because workers and civilians have so much political power under UA. Non-egalitarians have to get it all from jobs.

 

[Red Death]

These buildings are the most mineral-efficient way of producing jobs

But should they be?

and in particular are intended to be used for colonies that are too small to specialize. A brand-new colony needs 1000 minerals to add 100 jobs/district, and then another 500 minerals for the districts themselves. The second specialization slot costs another 1000. So, to get the first 200 researchers on a planet, you can either:

• Spend 2500 minerals on two specializations and a district (after 20+ game years), or
• Spend 400 minerals on a lab

I guess I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make here? What colonies are too small to specialize? And if you just need some small prduction for whatever reason, why can't you just build one district? No need to spring for that expensive specialisation when you don't have many districts yet!

Similar story for e.g. alloy production. Your capital needs the ability to produce metallurgists without scaling research/unity/CGs in lockstep. Districts are required to do anything at scale, but buildings are for bootstrapping. Once you have the districts built up, you convert the +job buildings to +efficiency buildings.

Well, that's just because unfortunately the "two specialisations linked to one district system" is terrible and I've been complaining about it since it was still 3 specialisations in the beta.

How about this:
I don't necessarily see the need for these buildings, but if you do, how about they stay, but only for the main 5 building slots in the city district. Because you said they're just for bootstrapping new colonies, so they don't need to be in the specialisation building slots (which you didn't what to build yet, right?) and it does not matter as much that they are taking up those very valuable slots. That way they're still available, but at least we get rid of "build one of each district so you can use the building slots to make more jobs".

 

[Revengeance_oov]

But should they be?

Yes, unless you want a planet's first specialization to be free (or much lower cost, anyway).

What colonies are too small to specialize? And if you just need some small prduction for whatever reason, why can't you just build one district? No need to spring for that expensive specialisation when you don't have many districts yet!

How are you supposed to get research/alloys early game, without generating a massive surplus of minerals needed to specialize urban districts? You can't get any research or alloys otherwise.

That way they're still available, but at least we get rid of "build one of each district so you can use the building slots to make more jobs"

Well now I don't understand, because the "one of each" problem applies to resource districts, not urban specializations.

 

[jedavis]

You can't reduce the numbers in a meaningful way as Rare Resources are tied to Industry, you can't produce them separately. That is the real problem. The new system is inflexible.

Inability to scale my production of strategics without also scaling something else (be that minerals from gatherers or alloys/CGs from industry) is very frustrating. I'd be more OK with a 5x nerf to strategic refinery output if it were decoupled from alloy/CG production, so that I could keep my strategic production high enough to feed all these gas-hungry advanced science buildings without also piling up more alloys than I know what to do with.

Kinda want a set of refinery specializations for city districts tbh. Mixed (30 gas, 30 motes, and 30 crystal refiners per city district) and specialized (100 gas, 100 motes, or 100 crystal refiners per city district). Why do we have buildings doing these wacky output changes on metallurgists and artisans instead of getting them as dedicated jobs from specialized districts? Sure, the tech requirements to unlock mixed refining districts might get a bit weird, but I'm sure we can work something out (maybe something like Void Hive where you get like a 90% output penalty for refining stuff that you don't have the tech for yet).

 

[BigPoofyJacket]

Unity from factions is so abundant that you can forget about it.

This hasn't been my experience at all. It seems like no matter what ethics/policies I have, my factions only provide 1-5 unity each, regardless of what year it is or how many pops follow them.

 

[hart30]

There are a lot of ways to gain a lot of unity without having a unity world now. For example in my last game i made a fortress world for naval capacity and got suprised by it producing masses of unity (had the right tradition and a grand archive relic both granting soldier jobs unity income)

 

[Red Death]

Yes, unless you want a planet's first specialization to be free (or much lower cost, anyway).

How are you supposed to get research/alloys early game, without generating a massive surplus of minerals needed to specialize urban districts? You can't get any research or alloys otherwise.

Well now I don't understand, because the "one of each" problem applies to resource districts, not urban specializations.

Ah I see, I was conflating the basic resource +jobs buildings with the advanced resource +jobs buildings.

Well, I guess for you use-case it is still fine if said jobs can only be built in the main 5 slots, correct? But you're also correct that I mainly have an issue with the basic resource +jobs buildings.

Can we at least agree that deleting the basic resource +200 jobs or restricting them to the default 5 city district slots would not do harm, and eliminate the at-least-one-of-each-district problem?