Please, Paradox, don't treat us childishly...

[LeandroB]

I just want to vent my opinion on this Deus Vult situation.
So i'm not the first to say this, but this situation is, to say the least, ridiculous. I don't think that having the words or not in the game is a big issue, but to take it out based in the assumption that these are intrinsically related to some sort of racist moviment and that having it in the context of a game called "CRUSADER Kings" means promoting such ideas is... stupid. It's like saying that games promote violence, or something like that, and that we, the costumers, are so stupid and susceptible that you have to remove it.
If something like that is really an issue than let me remind you that you have a game where we can all play with f***** Nazis, how about that?
So, i'm not sure what is that all about. If you guys really believe in stuff like that, well, i can't say much, but if thats just pandering to look "woke", geez Paradox, you can do better.
Lets see how long it takes to this tread to be closed.
You all have a nice day.

 

[Dsingis]

This thread is going to be closed, because there is a megathread on that topic to prevent flooding or spaming this forum. This has nothing to do with censorship, you are free to voice your opinion in the designated thread.
That thread is currently closed though because there have been a lot of reports apparently, and the mods need time to go through that thread to review possible violations of rules.
So you'll need to wait until it's open again, but then you can express your concerns there.

Also: there has been an update from Henrik Fåhraeus regarding the article in question.

Update – Henrik Fåhraeus offered this comment: “I feel like this issue has been miscommunicated thus far. We have not specifically considered which terms are used in the game apart from making sense in the historical context. The team will decide how any text fits or does not fit into CK3 in a way that feels appropriate.”

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...is-happening-heres-ten-things-we-know-so-far/

 

[LeandroB]

Yeah, i saw the megathread after i posted, although, like you said, its closed and, nobody reads over 800 posts in a mega thread...
Also, i think thats a very poor handling to just close treads or make people wait to vent something upsetting and threating to infract while calling all thise miss communincation, sure does looks like censoring. Thats why there is people review bombing CKII... But sure. Just said what i had to say.

 

[faiuwle]

The thing about them taking it out because of racists was apparently made up by the journalist.

However, if you think the alt-right hasn't co-opted that phrase, you must be living under a rock. Whether that merits taking it out of the game is another matter, but it's ultimately up to Paradox and it is in fact not censorship for a creator to make decisions about what goes into their own creation.

 

[LeandroB]

The thing about them taking it out because of racists was apparently made up by the journalist.

However, if you think the alt-right hasn't co-opted that phrase, you must be living under a rock. Whether that merits taking it out of the game is another matter, but it's ultimately up to Paradox and it is in fact not censorship for a creator to make decisions about what goes into their own creation.

They have the right to make the game they want in the way they want, sure, and we have the right to not like it, true.
About co-opting the words, i only see a few stupid idiots making use of it in such way very rarely and i they only "win" in the moment we make a big deal about it. Like the way the media makes a big fuss over the OK sign bcoz 4chan decided to troll around and worked so well that people are being canceled for making a "OK" with their hads. All this fuss could be avoided by not indulging over such non-issue stuff.

 

[Duke of Awesome]

The thing about them taking it out because of racists was apparently made up by the journalist.

However, if you think the alt-right hasn't co-opted that phrase, you must be living under a rock. Whether that merits taking it out of the game is another matter, but it's ultimately up to Paradox and it is in fact not censorship for a creator to make decisions about what goes into their own creation.

It is self censorship though, which is something we should protest whenever possible. The alt right use the phrase, but they don't own it. Banning it from common parlance, especially in the correct historical context, only gives the alt right more power.

 

[LeandroB]

It is self censorship though, which is something we should protest whenever possible. The alt right use the phrase, but they don't own it. Banning it from common parlance, especially in the correct historical context, only gives the alt right more power.

Exactly.

 

[faiuwle]

Censorship is something you do to someone else. If I choose which words I want to use carefully, I'm just doing what every other person does every minute of every day.

If you don't believe me about alt-right co-opting of this term:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult#Other_uses: "Disseminated in the form of hashtags and internet memes, Deus vult has enjoyed popularity with members of the alt-right because of its perceived representation of the clash of civilizations between the Christian West and the Islamic world.[12][13] However, historical analysis has suggested that Crusaders were more strongly influenced by the desire for salvation from sin than opposition to Muslims."
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...-alt-right-and-never-miss-a-dog-whistle-again
https://www.npr.org/2017/09/04/5485...emacists-chanting-deus-vult-got-history-wrong
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alt-right_glossary#Deus_vult

And no, you can't change reality by ignoring it.

 

[CommanderL]

Censorship is something you do to someone else. If I choose which words I want to use carefully, I'm just doing what every other person does every minute of every day.

If you don't believe me about alt-right co-opting of this term:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult#Other_uses: "Disseminated in the form of hashtags and internet memes, Deus vult has enjoyed popularity with members of the alt-right because of its perceived representation of the clash of civilizations between the Christian West and the Islamic world.[12][13] However, historical analysis has suggested that Crusaders were more strongly influenced by the desire for salvation from sin than opposition to Muslims."
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...-alt-right-and-never-miss-a-dog-whistle-again
https://www.npr.org/2017/09/04/5485...emacists-chanting-deus-vult-got-history-wrong
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alt-right_glossary#Deus_vult

And no, you can't change reality by ignoring it.

the alt right also got the ok symbol declared a hate symbol

lets stop giving ground to the bad people and say fuck it

 

[Carmichael]

Censorship is something you do to someone else. If I choose which words I want to use carefully, I'm just doing what every other person does every minute of every day.

If you don't believe me about alt-right co-opting of this term:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult#Other_uses: "Disseminated in the form of hashtags and internet memes, Deus vult has enjoyed popularity with members of the alt-right because of its perceived representation of the clash of civilizations between the Christian West and the Islamic world.[12][13] However, historical analysis has suggested that Crusaders were more strongly influenced by the desire for salvation from sin than opposition to Muslims."
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...-alt-right-and-never-miss-a-dog-whistle-again
https://www.npr.org/2017/09/04/5485...emacists-chanting-deus-vult-got-history-wrong
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alt-right_glossary#Deus_vult

And no, you can't change reality by ignoring it.

How to be wrong twice. Self-censorship is a real concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-censorship), and no one ever denied the alt-right use of the expression, on the contrary the point is that it's counterproductive to ban an appropriated word, even more so when used in its proper context.

 

[faiuwle]

The OK symbol was unfortunate, because that really was just a troll to get them to do that. But no one was trying to get Deus Vult labeled as a hate phrase, they just like using it. If you're ok with the idea that you'll be attracting literal Nazis to you with that phrase, then by all means, go ahead and use it outside of a historical context.

If you want to call it self-censorship, go ahead, but it's done by everyone, all the time, and is really no big deal.

And people in this very thread and all over this forum have been outright denying that it has any connection to the alt-right.

 

[Carmichael]

You don't attract alt-righters, alt-righters infest your community if you don't properly manage it. We already have ToS that deal with those issues, self-censorship is unnecessary, and the Paradox Community has an history of using Deus Vult way before the Christchurch attacks.

 

[zorkman]

What makes me laugh about this, is until yesterday I had no idea the phrase had been hijacked by the Far Right. The only phrase that I have heard is the Muslim one Allah Akbar, which appears at every atrocity, & haven't heard that being banned. So, now great parts of the Paradox forums are now informed of something, they knew little of before. Great going.

 

[Fenyx]

The thing about them taking it out because of racists was apparently made up by the journalist.

However, if you think the alt-right hasn't co-opted that phrase, you must be living under a rock.

You seem to be forgetting that US does not encompass the entire world. If one is not aware of all the crazyness related to wrongthink that happens in the US, that does not mean one lives under a rock.
It is also quite sad that because sociopolitical issues in one country, people from the entire globe must suffer bs like removing historical phrase from the game, or worrying about somebody labeling them fascist for an innocent "ok" hand-gesture.

 

[viola]

Censorship is something you do to someone else.

I have to disagree. To create an environment where people, in any situation but especially in arts and creative jobs, don't feel secure about writing and creating freely out of fear of extraordinary social or political pressure is censorship, and it's downright dangerous to refuse to recognize it as such.

In recent times creators have come under increasing pressure to make sure that their works abide to the tastes of certain social media groups. This is a deeply negative trend that hurts creativity and needs to be stopped.

 

[Jade_Rook]

Thread locked. Please wait for the megathread to reopen. Thank you!