Please stop naming the "byzantine empire" so

[unmerged(183166)]

The reason this topic was done and similar like it, is because a group of people went on wikipedia, discovering it wasn't called the 'Byzantium Empire'.

Armed with this knowledge, they came over on this forum, deciding to flex their e-muscles, demanding that the name should be changed, irrespective of common consensus between modern day historians to denote the time-period and the various reasons this is done.

This makes them feel proud and superior to Paradox, and they give themselves a big pat on the back.


This post may seem cruel, but it is unfortunately an accurate summation.

 

[Vaximillian]

This post may seem cruel, but it is unfortunately an accurate summation.

Sad but true.

 

[monsterfurby]

An event chain that would turn large part of the map into one big blob? Not my idea of interesting.

But then again, you know, the advantage of CK has always been that "blobs" aren't really "blobs" because of their subdivision into counties and duchies.

 

[EvilCartyen]

Byzantium is the most commonly used name for the Empire. Only the Byzantines themselves ever called the Empire "East Rome", and it makes sense to use the most commonly used name for a country.

Actually, without taking a stance either way, since I don't really gives a rat's ass whether it's one name or another, I have very often in Danish heard and seen the Empire referred to as 'Det Østromerske Kejserrige' i.e. 'The East-Roman Empire'. Not that it matters - you guys go ahead and have the pointless discussions we all love on this forum

 

[Garak]

Actually, without taking a stance either way, since I don't really gives a rat's ass whether it's one name or another, I have very often in Danish heard and seen the Empire referred to as 'Det Østromerske Kejserrige' i.e. 'The East-Roman Empire'. Not that it matters - you guys go ahead and have the pointless discussions we all love on this forum

Well from a strictly accurate point of view, that is what it would be called, or simply "Roman Empire", since it really was part of the Roman Empire that survived into this period. But really, it's irrelevent. I call it the Byzantine Empire all the time. It's convenient for marking out the period you're referring to, if nothing else.

 

[Rhion]

What's in a name. That which P'dox calls the Byzantine Empire
By any other name, would have been crushed by the Turks too.

I understand why some people prefer the "historically correct" name. Byzantine Empire is a weird name anyway. The captial wasn't even called Byzantium when the Roman empire split. I guess writers just tought the Constantinoplean Empire didn't have the same ring to it. I agree.

 

[telesien]

Well from a strictly accurate point of view, that is what it would be called, or simply "Roman Empire", since it really was part of the Roman Empire that survived into this period. But really, it's irrelevent. I call it the Byzantine Empire all the time. It's convenient for marking out the period you're referring to, if nothing else.

It is, but I still incline to the fact, that game set in certain time frame should use correct names from such time frame. You start to go soft on East Rome and end up with Stalinist Russia or medieval Great Britain

 

[unmerged(138733)]

I hope they don't chasnge the name. Byzantine Empire is fine with me.
In the Paradox games I usually play the old underdog empires which are no more, and that includes the Byzantines, the Ottoman empire, the Golden Horde, the Timurids, Spain in V1 and V2, etc. Changing the name to the ERE does not carry the same feeling making the hopeless underdog win that Byzantine does.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

I understand why some people prefer the "historically correct" name. Byzantine Empire is a weird name anyway. The captial wasn't even called Byzantium when the Roman empire split. I guess writers just tought the Constantinoplean Empire didn't have the same ring to it. I agree.

The term "Byzantine" Empire was popularized by 18th and early 19th century historians. Just like every trend in history, it was motivated by the desire to analyze and re-interprete history according to the fashion of the day - and the fashion of the day in the 18th and early 19th century was to look for (and find) proof that rationalism and enlightenment were the best approaches to the grand questions of state and society, while religion in general and state-managed religion in particular were the worst thing that could possibly happen to a society.

The Roman Empire, which during Christianization turned from a (supposedly) rational and enlightened society into a society dominated by state religion and mysticism, was picked as the case study to prove the grand idea. The republican era and everything up to 4th century was picked as the example for a well managed, successful society, and everything beyond was chosen to become the example for how religion and mysticism led to decline and eventually collapse. It logically followed that new terms would be necessary to tell apart the "good" Empire from the "bad" Empire.

It's interesting to note that in eastern Europe, where enlightenment and rationalism did not catch on, historians and philosophers never rejected religion and mysticism like they did in western Europe. For that reasons (and others) they did not follow the trend of Byzantine-bashing, although AFAIK Russians and other eastern European historians also eventually copied the term "Byzantine Empire" for use in their histories.

 

[Vaximillian]

AFAIK Russians and other eastern European historians also eventually copied the term "Byzantine Empire" for use in their histories.

You're right here. We don't use "Eastern Roman Empire" that often. Just "Byzantine Empire" or just "Byzantium".

 

[unmerged(188040)]

How many people complaining about this often refer to The Soviet Union as "Russia" or Soviets as "Russians" when discussing WW2 or the Cold War Period?

 

[Vaximillian]

How many people complaining about this often refer to The Soviet Union as "Russia" or Soviets as "Russians" when discussing WW2 or the Cold War Period?

And GB/UK as "England" or British as English.

 

[Onedreamer]

These are supposed to be period games, in the period the game takes place they were NEVER called the Byzantine empire. They were only called so in the 18th century WELL after they were gone. Likely if they had survived to a modern period they would either be called the Greek Empire (what they were called in the west) or the Roman Empire (what they called themselves).

We play the game and how they called themselves is less important than how we call them. There are several other examples. For example the Aztecs didn't call themselves Aztecs AFAIK.
Would you perhaps prefer the arabian Caliphates be called in arabic and maybe written in arabic characters? I'd rather have each nation recognized easily by everyone than create confusion in the name of that actually inexistant thing called "historical accuracy".

The Roman Empire, which during Christianization turned from a (supposedly) rational and enlightened society into a society dominated by state religion and mysticism, was picked as the case study to prove the grand idea. The republican era and everything up to 4th century was picked as the example for a well managed, successful society, and everything beyond was chosen to become the example for how religion and mysticism led to decline and eventually collapse. It logically followed that new terms would be necessary to tell apart the "good" Empire from the "bad" Empire.

Are you kidding, none west of the ERE would call them Romans especially after the final break with Rome. The Pope even came up with a "Holy Roman Empire", to emphasize the fact that this Empire was the true successor of the Roman Empire and not the ERE as "Byzantines" were claiming. No, it wasn't some trend of the 18th century to make western Europe call the ERE something different than what they wished. Not to mention that even the rest you wrote is completely wrong since the Catholic Church has been demonizing Ancient/Republic Rome even more than the later Christian Empire or the Byzantine Empire. Republic Romans were WAY more mysticists than Byzantines. Do you realize they wouldn't go to battle if a darned crow was sighted at dawn ?

 

[Barón Rojo]

Enrico Dandolo proclaimed himself Lord of "two thirds of Romania" after the Fourth Crusade. ie. was a term widely used in the period.

 

[monsterfurby]

How many people complaining about this often refer to The Soviet Union as "Russia" or Soviets as "Russians" when discussing WW2 or the Cold War Period?

Um.. But "Soviet" is not the name of a nationality, merely a part of the government form ("Soviet Union" = Union of Councils, approximately). The main state of the Soviet Union was still the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (Росси́йская Сове́тская Федерати́вная Социалисти́ческая Респу́блика).

This calling cold-war Russians "Soviets" is kind of like calling Americans "Statesians".

I still agree with your point though. This should really be a non-issue.

 

[n0z3k1ll3r]

No calling Russians "Soviets" is like calling New Yorkers "Americans". IE accurate. Calling Soviets "Russians" on the other hand...

And yeah I don't see the issue. Byzantine Empire is what its known as now and what it's recognised as. If you called everything by the name they picked you'd have overlaps very quickly.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Since the Soviet Union most likely won't be in this game and everything that could be said about this subject has been said, this thread will be closed.