plz dont do the Power-System in the next EU Game

[Kael90]

Yea please... i spend hundreds of hours in EU3...
But EU4 is only managing power. If you got a bad Ruler? You are screwed for the entire game. Comebacks are rarely an option. [profanity edited out by a moderator]

If you dont play as a major power you dont have enough money for the advisors. While the Major Powers already have these +2 or +3 dudes giving them so much power and running away in science.

In EU3 the science thing was scaled into Land you owned. Here it doesnt even feel like it is like this. Even here: the institutions push you back sooooooo frkn hard. You have a bad ruler + not an institution? GG game is over. Its impossible to get these points in the time back.

Even with all these updates, just because of these hardcore-focus on the 3 power sources, binded on your ruler, makes the game to some degree unplayable.

Like, in EU3 i stood a chance against poland. Now, the Teutonic Order is a shadow of itself. Scotland the same. I need to fast conquer ireland to get enough troop capacity to get any chance against england.

In EU 3 Scotland was a threat. In EU4 i just conquer scotland just because it looks bad on the island.

For me - EU4 is ,even when i own most of the DLC and stuff, the worst Experience in this game. And i REALLY loved EU 3. And i wanted to love EU 4. Thats why i start this game again and again. But the more i play it, the more i start to dislike it.

Because the things you decide and do doesnt feel realistic. And i blame the main 3-Power System for it. Killing all the authenticity in a more 'free game'.
Maybe it is, because it just feels like i just have to manage these 3 Powers. And if im not able to make it, which is also VERY OFTEN not in my hand, because i get like 0/1/2 Ruler. You simply fall behind and you can do nothing about it.

Even money wont fix this to a certain degree. When every other has good Advisors but your King is still shitty, you fall behind. If you dont have the money (like in early game), and your king is shitty, you fall behind. In EU3 you could compensate that by spending money on things or being more diplomatic. But because of the Power you cant even do diplomatically very much when your king is shit. Cause if you have 'too many diplomatic relations' you cant get over it.

It feels like you are just running 'behind that power' and spend that power into things. But it feels wrong, it feels bad and it makes 0 fun.

tl;dr
the 3-power System (Adminstrative, diplomatic, military) completly destroyed the game for me. The more i play it, the more i dislike this system. Plz never do this again.

 

[Johan]

There will not be any mana in any game I make, unless its a game about magic.

 

[grommile]

There will not be any mana in any game I make, unless its a game about magic.

Fantasy GSG confirmed!

 

[Johan]

Fantasy GSG confirmed!

definitely not.

i just didnt want anyone to dig up an old post from february 2023, claiming i lied, if i ever made a mana-oriented fantasy game.

 

[Kael90]

What are you talking about.

Its about this system with adminstrativ/diplomatic/military power which is a really confusing bottleneck

 

[grommile]

In EU3 the science thing was scaled into Land you owned.

People seriously exaggerate how much this actually mattered for science.

1 province: 100% tech cost
8 provinces: 200% tech cost
48 provinces: 300% tech cost
88 provinces: 400% tech cost
168 provinces: 600% tech cost

It was not actually hard to keep up to date on technology as a large country unless you made certain specific mistakes with your conquest strategy.

Sure, the Netherlands running Free Trade could get a decade ahead of you. But apart from certain breakpoints like Army Tech 18, that didn't matter.

In EU 3 Scotland was a threat. In EU4 i just conquer scotland just because it looks bad on the island.

In which version of EU3 was AI Scotland more of a threat to human England than it was in EU4 1.0 through 1.11? Sincere question; I certainly can't remember it being the case in Divine Wind.

If you got a bad Ruler? You are screwed for the entire game.

I would rather have twenty years of a 0 MIL ruler in EU4, than twenty years of a 3 MIL ruler in EU3, because the only thing the 0 MIL ruler affects is Monarch Power and a few event triggers.

I would definitely rather have twenty years of a 0 ADM ruler in EU4, than twenty years of a 3 ADM ruler in EU3. (In this case the very important thing is monthly War Exhaustion reduction.)

What are you talking about.

Its about this system with adminstrativ/diplomatic/military power which is a really confusing bottleneck

Johan was saying EU5 won't have the monarch power system from EU4.

I was jokingly invoking a gaming meme.

 

[Xdevo]

What happens if people start calling Ducats a mana system (need extra production - use your gold mana to poof a building to make more stuff)?

The whole mana debate is kinda self-defeating. There's no remotely consistent definition of mana (people are calling construction in Vic3 mana, people have called piety and prestige from CK3 mana, people have called HOI4's political points mana, etc) so it just ends up being "mana is whatever I don't like" which is obviously an unusable standard.

I do definitely prefer the 3 powers to time gating systems (ie you can do x thing every y years) and to everything being based around a single currency a la EU3. I think the capacity systems that Vic3 has are better than the mana system, but I'm not sure how well they would work in a EU4-style game.

 

[Marquoz]

If you dont play as a major power you dont have enough money for the advisors. While the Major Powers already have these +2 or +3 dudes giving them so much power and running away in science...Even with all these updates, just because of these hardcore-focus on the 3 power sources, binded on your ruler, makes the game to some degree unplayable.

Skilled players (and I include myself in this category) can conquer the entire world in EU4 starting as literally any nation on the map. Sure, you can't afford advisors early on as an OPM. So what? If you grow like crazy, like I do, you'll have +5 advisors in every category soon enough. Monarch points are only a bottleneck if you're unskilled.

 

[moscal]

What happens if people start calling Ducats a mana system (need extra production - use your gold mana to poof a building to make more stuff)?

By ducats you cant get extremal changes like by eg. ADM-Point. Eg. transformation nation from anarchy to "celestial harmony" (stability from -3 to +3) or mass amnesia about war (reduction WE) or full repair monetary system (inflation) etc. And all in one day.

Power system will not be mana, if we will have cooldowns, loading bars or something others. Without limites... this is magic.

 

[grommile]

transformation nation from anarchy to "celestial harmony" (stability from -3 to +3) (...) all in one day.

EU3's system will let you go from -3 stab to +3 stab in one day if you have enough ducats – the stability bar has a "spend 2 ducats to get 1 ducat progress" button just like the tech bars – but unless you're a Free Trade OPM or something, you probably don't have enough ducats.

You're right about the rest, though.

 

[Austregisel]

There will not be any mana in any game I make, unless its a game about magic.

I'm pretty sure most wouldn't mind if something needed to be abstracted through 'mana', obviously not something that is intertwined with most eu4 mechanics like monarch power is. But I think I understand your point.

 

[ImAdrian]

You have a bad ruler + not an institution? GG game is over. Its impossible to get these points in the time back.

If you mean in singleplayer, its really not that grim. I have no problems dominating with shitty small african nations. Make sure you disinherit very bad heirs. Develop provinces to spawn institutions. Also, its oke to fall behind on adm and dip, just focus on keeping up with mil - but in most cases even if you're a tech behind, its not game over.

 

[Xdevo]

Power system will not be mana, if we will have cooldowns, loading bars or something others. Without limites... this is magic.

This is literally just casting cooldowns from WoW though.

Everything is magic if you remove it from context and twist the words around enough. We can talk about if a system is fun, engaging, or whatever good terms you want to use, but you're always going to have someone saying that every abstraction is a form of magic in one way or another.

 

[Brynjar]

There will not be any mana in any game I make, unless its a game about magic.

That's a pity. I rather like resources that goes up and down at varying speeds depending on my choices, like money.

 

[Kael90]

That's a pity. I rather like resources that goes up and down at varying speeds depending on my choices, like money.

Thats also what i like. But thats not how Power-Points work. you cant change them, like in Stellaris, over the market into more useful stuff if you need them.

In the worst case, you are in a status quo scenario. You cant attack, you cant colonize, cause you are in central europe. And you just need to wait, because you are surrounded by enemies who are allied with a big power or have 4-5 allies so they triple your troops size. The only thing you can do - is spending this 3 Power Points into your provinces. And thats it. But if you do it, MAYBE, you waste too much points so you fall back behind in science.

And, while you are wondering why the AI is able to keep up with teching, you cant develop your country because you need the points to stay in game. Or, you develop 1 Province to get an institution where you spend like, lets say, 1.000 points for it. And then you again - has to wait for them to fill up.

Because you cant 'switch' the points or do it in a different way it feels highly annoying for me.

 

[moscal]

This is literally just casting cooldowns from WoW though.

Cooldowns of 3sec isnt this same like a cooldowns of 50years

 

[Vulkandrache]

No. but a cooldown of 3 minutes.
And that would relatively be even longer.
3 minutes is half a boss fight while 50 years is only 1/7 of a full game.

 

[Buladelu]

What happens if people start calling Ducats a mana system (need extra production - use your gold mana to poof a building to make more stuff)?

I do think that it's a question about naming. Most strategy games just use resources in a way that doesn't make any sense and people are OK with that. Age of Empires or Rise of Nations ask you to spend wood and stone and metal to turn swordsmen into long swordsmen. I think EU3 had the right idea of using envoys (like magistrates) for stuff. People had issues with this approach, but it was mostly about balance and scale, these envoys were too discrete.

Victoria 3 seems to do a very similar thing with capacities that don't annoy people. Maybe in the future, we'll see more stuff along these lines

 

[Brynjar]

Thats also what i like. But thats not how Power-Points work. you cant change them, like in Stellaris, over the market into more useful stuff if you need them.

This just isn't true. You can influence them, just not as much as you want to. How much control is enough control? Can it become too much control?

In the worst case, you are in a status quo scenario. You cant attack, you cant colonize, cause you are in central europe. And you just need to wait, because you are surrounded by enemies who are allied with a big power or have 4-5 allies so they triple your troops size.

Why should you always be able to attack (and win, you can attack someone every month in most cases if you are willing to lose) or colonize? In my opinion always being able to attack (winnable) or colonize would make the game bland and stale.

The only thing you can do - is spending this 3 Power Points into your provinces. And thats it. But if you do it, MAYBE, you waste too much points so you fall back behind in science.

This simply isn't true. There are plenty of things you can do. For instance you can spend that time trying to get more powerful allies. That process can involve taking decisions which can influence your power gains, or cost powers.

And, while you are wondering why the AI is able to keep up with teching, you cant develop your country because you need the points to stay in game. Or, you develop 1 Province to get an institution where you spend like, lets say, 1.000 points for it. And then you again - has to wait for them to fill up.

Why would getting any further ahead of the AI than one already can be something good? Steamrolling the AI is too easy as it is.

P.S. There is nothing preventing you from doing something else than just waiting until you have banked the points. Declaring wars costs 0 points. You can even finish wars without spending a single power point, and come out with a higher production of power points than you started the war with, while at the same time decreasing the production of your enemy.

Because you cant 'switch' the points or do it in a different way it feels highly annoying for me.

You can though. It just takes a long time in many cases. Expanding generally improves your economy. Money can be converted into power points. It's all "mana" at the end of the day. Some of your spells are instant cast with instant effects, others are instant cast buffs which lasts a long time, or channeled spells. Some things are more like gear or talents etc (such as monarchs), which is not always as easy to change frequently or at a whim. What annoys you isn't "mana" or power points. What annoys you is the "gear", "talents" and "spells" available for you to use and influence the power point "mana".

Victoria 3 seems to do a very similar thing with capacities that don't annoy people. Maybe in the future, we'll see more stuff along these lines

And yet the game has only a third or so of the players that EU4 has with these "annoying" power points. Imperator died/remained dead despite getting rid of "mana". At the end of the day power points or no power points won't make or break EU5. Actual fun mechanics to earn and spend whatever resources the game has can.

 

[Buladelu]

And yet the game has only a third or so of the players that EU4 has with these "annoying" power points. Imperator died/remained dead despite getting rid of "mana". At the end of the day power points or no power points won't make or break EU5. Actual fun mechanics to earn and spend whatever resources the game has can.

You have a point. People complain about the stuff they engage with. EU4 is one of the best strategy games ever made. I don't know what exactly sinked Imperator. But it seems PDX devs themselves talk about MPs as something to avoid. It's an evil meme, something for people to focus on as "unrealistic" or "unfun"!