Pontifex Maximus is being an idiot - working as intended?

[SpaceX]

I finally restored the Pontifex Maximus after converting to Hellenism and kicking out the Byzantines. I was all prepped to start kicking ass in some holy wars, but the Pontifex is a moron. He has one county under my control, one of the holy sites of Hellenism, and he regularly declares holy wars against giant kingdoms very far away with no hope of winning. For some reason I cannot join his wars, nor can he call me into them. No one else in the world is Hellenic.

I made him independent and he does the same thing. He is always in a holy war, which he inevitably loses, plummeting the religious authority of the church. I had him assassinated and now his predecessor is doing the same thing.

Keep in mind these are NOT great holy wars which I could join, like a crusade, but merely independent holy wars he is waging himself. Is this working as intended? As I see it there is no way to prevent him from doing this.

Has anyone else restored the Pontifex and noticed similar behavior?

 

[Tyon]

Its essentially the same if you form Israel and reinstitute the Priesthood.

I formed Israel and reinstituted the Priesthood. For one week everything was okay. But then the High Priest declared a Holy war on the Abbasids and that was the end of my game because there was no way that my weak realm could fight off the doomstacks of the Abbasids without some heavy planning.
I reloaded three times and every time the same thing happened. The last time I lost against the Abbasids with pretty much zero money, no prestige or manpower.
Then after two months of peace the High Priest declared a Holy War against the East Romans.

And that was the end of the story because after that lost war the Abbasids declared Jihad on me.


This really shouldn't happen. The High Priest is my Vassal and should stfu when not being asked to do so.

 

[Duke of Awesome]

Same thing happens with the Arch Druid of Tuatha. He's making my vassal borders messy with him owning landing from Northumbria to Kent.

 

[Rylock]

Here's my question:

The cb being invoked is Holy War, yes? Not a Crusade (or Great Holy War/Jihad, depending on the religion)? I ask because the Holy War CB is restricted as only being usable against duchies which border or are very close (within 75 distance) to provinces in the invoker's realm...so I'm curious what's meant by "giant kingdoms very far away" in the original post. That shouldn't be possible, short of the targeted duchy bordering your realm.

Insofar as the religion head being able to declare a Holy War -- I'm not going to restrict that, anymore than I would any other vassal being able to do the same. So long as the religion head owns a county and is able to raise levies, they should be able to declare holy wars like anyone else. The only thing I'd want to make certain of is that the target is a valid one.

 

[baramdoongi]

I also had the experience of the Kohen Gadol in Israel calling a Great Holy War for Punjab, so there's definitely some weirdness happening

 

[Rylock]

I also had the experience of the Kohen Gadol in Israel calling a Great Holy War for Punjab, so there's definitely some weirdness happening

If you had that in previous versions, it's already been fixed in the latest -- currently the Crusade CB cannot be employed against a kingdom unless it contains a holy site or contains/borders a province either of that religion or ruled by someone of that religion. I can't do anything about the way crusade weights work, but I can restrict kingdoms entirely from being targeted, and that's been done.

This isn't about the Crusade CB, however. It's about the Holy War CB.

 

[Ritmas]

I also had same/similar things happen as Byz Orthodox(tho it was few months ago, so it might be fixed) where the ecumenical patriarch just kept holy waring pagans and nomads in the north, though he won them as for some reason my other vassals would join(not his allies) his wars and messed with my pretty borders.

 

[Rylock]

I also had same/similar things happen as Byz Orthodox(tho it was few months ago, so it might be fixed) where the ecumenical patriarch just kept holy waring pagans and nomads in the north, though he won them as for some reason my other vassals would join(not his allies) his wars and messed with my pretty borders.

But did the pagans and nomads border your territory?

I can change the requirements for the holy war CB so it requires a target to border the vassal's land (or the land of their own vassals) -- as right now it just needs to be territory that borders their liege's realm -- but, barring that, if the religion head's target does border his liege's land this is not a bug. The only way to stop vassals from going to war on their own is to have the right level of Crown Authority.

 

[Ritmas]

But did the pagans and nomads border your territory?

I can change the requirements for the holy war CB so it requires a target to border the vassal's land (or the land of their own vassals) -- as right now it just needs to be territory that borders their liege's realm -- but, barring that, if the religion head's target does border his liege's land this is not a bug. The only way to stop vassals from going to war on their own is to have the right level of Crown Authority.

My realm did have few holdings in Crimea, but it I found it a bit immersion breaking when ecumenical patriarch not the other vassals would go out of his way non stop holy-waring everyone. It's probably because religious head excess piety and gold laying around so they can easily afford a lot of mercs and piety for cb.

 

[Rylock]

My realm did have few holdings in Crimea, but it I found it a bit immersion breaking when ecumenical patriarch not the other vassals would go out of his way non stop holy-waring everyone. It's probably because religious head excess piety and gold laying around so they can easily afford a lot of mercs and piety for cb.

The piety cost isn't very high for a religion head, and he doesn't have to ask permission -- so he can indeed declare war without much trouble. If he has Zealous, his desire to declare will be higher than normal. I notice that the AI's estimation of which wars they can actually win is pretty wonky right now, but there is zilch we can do about that.

I think I will go ahead and adjust the way adjacency is determined for the CB, so a landed religion head will only be able to declare against targets he personally borders, but that's as far as I think this needs to go. My one concern was that adjacency wasn't working (via the "giant kingdoms very far away" comment in the OP), but provided that comment meant "very far away from him" and not "very far away from my realm" that's an issue I can solve.

 

[Adolphin]

Same thing happening with the head of the reformed celtic faith. The first time he declared war on some Indian kingdom I was like "oh well" and simply reloaded. I did that a couple of times and the results were always the same. Eventually I just decided to put on my big-boy pants and take my authority hit like a man.
There's definitely something going on with the decisions that lead to the head of a religion declaring war on somebody.

 

[TheStrangerOrg]

the patriarch supreme did the same for me when i conquered rome in my byzzie game. my 1 countie patriarch was often going to war with the abbasids lol he also went to war with the khazars... the crazy guy won too

 

[SpaceX]

The problem is that I can't help the Pontifex with his wars. If I could help him, we could win them, but there's a mechanic preventing me from doing so.

 

[Genrit]

The Supreme <Insert Title Here>, for me, has been doing some very crazy wars as well. However, it is not a Holy War, it is a regular claim war. Basically, if for example the Chalcedonian Supreme Patriarch has any county/duchy claim, that patriarch *will* declare war on the claim holder (irrespective the size of his army versus the target's army) on his "election". So if you have a vassalized Archbishop who gets elected, he will declare war on his old duchy .... and march his men across the map to do so.

Easy* way to to repeat this:
1. Start as the ERE/HRE/etc
2. Vassalize Rome & Constantinople
3. Make a couple of vassal archbishops to ensure they are chosen as Cardinals
4. Anoint the Supreme Patriarch (make sure he is a vassal of yours)
5. Wait for some cardinals to be appointed
6. Ensure that a Cardinal/Archbishop controlling a direct vassal duchy to you is Preferatus (some death may be required)
6. Wait for the Supreme Patriarch to die (or just console kill him - more death)
7. Watch as the new Supreme Patriarch declares war on the new Archbishop of his old lands.

*Subjective

This works with both the Latin and Greek versions. Since the Supreme Patriarch's troops are usually so much less in number to the Archbishop's, the war continues until the Supreme Patriarch's death. As old Cardinals are usually elected, the cycle continues, ad nausium.

I would think that Supreme Patriarch needs to have all claims stripped from him on election. That would solve at least that issue. However, what I would like to know is why the Supreme Patriarch is doing this in the first place as it might indicate that something else is broken in the declare-war logic.

 

[Rylock]

We can't control the AI's declare-war logic. Whatever the Supreme Patriarch is doing, the Pope should do as well -- the mechanics of their election work exactly the same way.