Proselytizing and non-proselytizing

[Dysydent]

There was a discussion here about whether non-proselytising religions should be able to convert and wage holy wars and ultimately the option to allow them to do so, succeeded. I have a different idea. I apologize in advance if this was already proposed somewhere.

1. Non-proselytising religions are unable to convert and wage holy wars.
2. Some land-oriented religions like Judaism that is tied to a certain territory can have something like "reclaim the Kingdom of David" or something like that to reconquer lands of their former glory while having the same effect as a holy war - since it is their land, they will set up their administration - dukes, counts, barons, mayors, rabbis.
3. Non-proselytising religions should also have an option to alter their approach - either by enabling converting and waging holy wars by event or setting the religion to a heresy, that promotes a different approach. After that, every courtier with opinion of liege higher than 25 and not zealous/observant, can change religion by event. For an unlucky player, even an old-believers' rebellion can occur. This would allow player to shape his state and religion while making it more fun and more complicated.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

There was a discussion here about whether non-proselytising religions should be able to convert and wage holy wars and ultimately the option to allow them to do so, succeeded. I have a different idea. I apologize in advance if this was already proposed somewhere.

1. Non-proselytising religions are unable to convert and wage holy wars.
2. Some land-oriented religions like Judaism that is tied to a certain territory can have something like "reclaim the Kingdom of David" or something like that to reconquer lands of their former glory while having the same effect as a holy war - since it is their land, they will set up their administration - dukes, counts, barons, mayors, rabbis.
3. Non-proselytising religions should also have an option to alter their approach - either by enabling converting and waging holy wars by event or setting the religion to a heresy, that promotes a different approach. After that, every courtier with opinion of liege higher than 25 and not zealous/observant, can change religion by event. For an unlucky player, even an old-believers' rebellion can occur. This would allow player to shape his state and religion while making it more fun and more complicated.

The problem is that religions never stay the same; some religions, like Judaism, underwent a strong period of proselytising (especially during Roman times) but stopped doing so, especially with the rise of Christianity, and eventually locked themselves in, making their religion pretty much an ethnic religion where Jew equals Hebrew and there's no hope for anyone else.

In a different manner, but with a similar end, only reversed, polytheistic Ancient religions all lived in the same "shared universe" or were aspects of the same "base divinities", and so a German could worship Thor and Jupiter or Hercules (the usual translations of Thor into the Mediterranean world) at the same time, depending on who was looking. These religions were not expansive, they didn't need or require the worship of other peoples or universal dominion. Most of them were secret or mysteric (sects or traditions), the rest were mostly civic religions linked to polities, places or "nations", groups of people. In that context, the expansion of religion was not achieved through specific conversion, since conversion didn't mean anything for them; it was implied that all divinities existed, therefore all could be worshipped in their due time and moment. If "conversion" happened into another set of religious beliefs, it was not by believing the others didn't exist, it was just that the rites and practices changed. That's why I believe changing religions should always come also with a change of culture, and vice-versa, for some religious beliefs, mostly the archaic or polytheistic. But religion is way too complex for a game that's made with a solid "Christinianity-Islam" divide...

I always remember two good quotes from the TV series "Rome": one, when Vorenus and Pullo were in Egypt and walking among the old statues of Sobek and other gods, and Pullo said "Ridiculous, a god with a crocodile head", to which Vorenus responded "Don't mock Egyptian gods on their own soil, they're ancient and powerful".

The other one was Vorenus and Mark Anthony speaking, drunk, in (I think) Alexandria, where Anthony asked Vorenus if there's an afterlife. Vorenus said... better watch the clip. "Greeks talk a whole lot of nonsense".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxe-nDXkZKs

 

[DarkReborn]

As I have said elsewhere, and as Cèsar has put it better, CK2 is not designed for pre-Christian religious beliefs. Heck, it doesn't even represent Catholic Christianity properly. The culture change with religious conversion is possible, but problematic code wise.

Continuing with HBO's Rome references, that's indeed what happened to Mark Anthony in the show. I remember either Octavian or one of his generals ( Or was it Atia? ) claiming that Anthony, now in Alexandria and Cleopatra's lover, had started worshipping their "animal gods" and that they were ridiculous/abominable, so there was some degree of cultural/religious posturing. Furthermore, he was seen wearing Egyptian garb and using kohl eye-liner. If that isn't a "cultural" conversion, you tell me what it is.

Of course this is from a TV show and not from actual historical fact, I guess, but that show was pretty much spot on in some things.